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A case against spray lubing your drive
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=53779		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  atv223 [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  A case against spray lubing your drive
After dumping my Outback in the surf this year and getting sand all inside the drive, it was time to tear my drive apart for the first time after a littler over a year of use.

Prior to this, religiously rinsed my drive off with water and sprayed it with Breakfree CLP as described in the FAQ after every saltwater ride and most fresh water ones.

What I realized during my tear down was that spraying the drive with any kind of lubricant was probably the worst thing you could do.

Here is why. All the shafts where components rotate on come lubricated with waterproof marine grease. This grease is sticky, stays put, lubricates well and is highly water resistant. However, it is impossible to replace without dissembling the drive. Good news is that it'll last a long long time in there, UNLESS, you spray some solvent based or low molecular weight oil on the drive that will seep in and dissolve out the grease. Then you are left with nothing but a thin lubricant which is far from ideal for lubricating the shafts.

From now on, I will only freshwater rinse my drive, occasionally lube the chain with a Q-Tip and tear it down once a year for a proper re-greasing.

The only other place I would put any lubricant or corrosion protection are where stainless steel comes in contact with aluminum to help prevent galvanic corrosion, at the pedals and stroke adjustment pin.

I'd love to hear other opinions on this.
Author:  Dr.SteelheadCatcher [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
atv223....I couldn't agree with you more regarding the spray lubricants (I use WD-40) on anything but the drive chains.

I found when the first time, I serviced my old 2010 Outback, the WD-40 I had liberally applied to the chains, dissolved a good portion of the "sticky grease" Hobie uses on the drum shafts and idler shaft.
So, after cleaning up everything, I used Evinrude-Johnson Triple guard marine grease that is blue in color, sticky as hell and does not wash out when exposed to water on the shafts.
The marine grease easily lasts a season and I put 500 miles on my PA-14 last year.
Author:  Tom Kirkman [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
A lot of this has to do with exactly what product you're spraying your drive with. WD-40 is a water displacement product and contains a solvent. It's not a lubricant nor a preservative.

CLR makes a couple products, one is a combination solvent and light lubricant and the other is a long term preservative, but not necessarily meant to be used as a lubricant. It's for rust protection in a non-used item.

Boeshield T-9 is a dry/wax lubricant. It won't cut/disolve grease or remove anything important within the Mirage Drive.
Author:  Roadrunner [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
Without additional lube, the grease eventually stiffens and "dries out", losing all lubrocity and contributes to friction. Anyone who had had to clean out old axles and ball joints has probably experienced this. It also eventually occurs with un-maintained Mirage Drives. Here's more on the subject if anyone is interested: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... out-causes

IMO, the Drives should be disassembled, cleaned and re-greased once yearly or every 500 miles or so. In the meantime a light penetrating oil keeps it from stiffening and yet should not fully displace it within that interval. I am not a fan of WD-40 for this purpose

A note of caution -- If you're not using a quality marine grade grease in the first place, it will wash out fast enough all by itself. 8)
Author:  Dr.SteelheadCatcher [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
Tom...thanks for the tip on Boeshield T9. This looks like the perfect lubricant for the Mirage drive chain.

I recently converted my V2 Mirage drive to the GT version and used Evinrude-Johnson triple guard marine grease to lubricate the needle bearings.
Matt replied a few day's ago to the question about lubricating the needle bearings and suggested WD-40......I really think using the marine grease with an annual cleaning/re-grease service is a better solution. It's a bit messy just like hand repacking wheel bearings , but cleans up with paper towels.
I also believe the grease will help to keep foreign material out of the bearings. I don't beach my PA-14 w/o first removing the mirage drive, so sand/grit is avoided.
What are your views?
Author:  RandomJoe [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
Doggone it... I had just about decided "what the heck, Hobie suggests WD-40, I'll just use WD-40" in spite of my concerns - and this thread brings up those concerns again... :mrgreen:

I bought my '13 Outback in August '13, it was a demo boat. I used the heck out of it for most of a year without doing a darn thing to the Mirage drive (freshwater only, nowhere near the ocean). I noticed it was getting REALLY stiff, and realized I ought to be lubricating something. Duh.

That's when I started paying attention to all this. I tried my bike chain lube, Purple Extreme - apparently it was originally developed for lubricating oilfield stuff on offshore platforms. I figured that'd be ideal. It worked great, when freshly applied the drive had almost no friction whatsoever. It didn't seem to last very long though - I was reapplying it every week or two. I also noticed a few months after I started using it that things were getting a bit TOO loose, especially the fat pin that goes through the pedals and clips into the boat. I could even push it side to side by hand. The pedals were starting to get very loose on the shaft, as if the holes were wallowing out.

The kayak shop had a few "spare" drives that had been damaged in rentals (mostly just fins bent 90 degrees) so they swapped out with me. That was last August. So far the new drive has been fine.

I don't know if the excess wear of the first drive was running the bearing surfaces dry (or at least the old grease going bad), or if the Purple Extreme has something in its carrier (which is petroleum based) that eats the plastic - perhaps also dissolves the marine grease, or just some other random event.

The Purple Extreme website lists a lot of plastics that it is compatible with, but I'm not sure what Hobie's plastic is. An email from someone at the company said the lubricant itself would be no problem, it's just the carrier that may be an issue. My concern with that was why I'd decided just to go with Hobie's recommendation of WD-40. And now I'm back to "what should I do?" :roll:

Guess I'll go get some marine grease. Haven't repacked bearings since my '71 VW SuperBeetle... :lol:
Author:  fusioneng [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
I think all of the above applies.
Yes I think the drives should be taken apart cleaned and re-packed with a good marine grease periodically (that's a given). I also feel that rinsing off with fresh clean water is very important after every use. I also feel that a light spray with WD 40 (or equivalent) periodically over all the metal/mechanical joints helps. Omitting any of the above steps, can lead to premature wear of the drives.
I suspect that the new Glide bearing drives will need cleaning and greasing a little more often, but the benefit of the new tech outweighs the downsides as long as everyone takes care of their stuff.
Bob
Author:  ronbo613 [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
WD 40 is mostly solvent with a small amount of lubricant. It does a good job of cleaning and leaves a thin layer of lubricant. It has been used to clean firearms, including in the US military, for years.

Marine grease is durable, but has the consistency of peanut butter. It may be perfect for the pivot point on an outboard motor, outdrive or for boat trailer bearings, but kind of "sticky" for a Mirage drive. Any grease is going to attract sand and dirt so regular maintenance is mandatory. The maintenance schedule depends on the environmental conditions and usage. Might want to try some silicone based grease like Slickoleum. It is a waterproof, low to mid temperature grease that is very low friction and will not harm plastic and rubber. Between maintenance to clean and replace the grease, you can use spray silicone to "refresh" the lube(I buy the silicon spray at WalMart). Slickoleum is also a great lube for fishing reels. The silicone grease may or may not last as long as marine grease, but you should be able to notice better performance and easier pedaling with the silicone grease/spray.
Author:  pmmpete [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
Tom Kirkman wrote:
Boeshield T-9 is a dry/wax lubricant. It won't cut/disolve grease or remove anything important within the Mirage Drive.

The Boeshield webpage says that Boeshield T-9 "attacks existing corrosion, loosens rusty parts and flushes out old lubricants." I'm wondering if you should either just use a good marine grease such as the Evinrude-Johnson Triple Guard and repack the bearings once a year, or use just Boeshield T-9 on a regular basis without any grease.
Author:  Tom Kirkman [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
The T-9 product dries very quickly. You'll have a hard time flushing out other lubricants, particularly grease of any kind, unless you apply a continuous torrent of the product to the area.

T-9 is all I use, and just a squirt on the pivot points and chains, about 3 times per year. I have 6 Mirage Drives and at least one going on 10 years of age and have yet to have a single part wear out. I've bent/busted a few, but not replaced anything due to wear.

One disclaimer, I'm not working in saltwater.
Author:  aprie [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
I think we need absolute clarification from Hobie as to how to grease/maintain the new 2015 Glide Mirage Drives with bearings - you can see the points where the Blue Grease is used & my understanding is that if WD40 or other solvent sprays are used on these areas, that it will strip the grease out of the bearings, causing damage if the grease is not replaced with an approved grease.

In Australia, one Hobie tecnhician recommends Lanolin Spray/grease (eg Lanox and Lanotec) for the lubrication & greasing of the New Glide Drives - and he points out NOT to use Solvent type sprays at all

I have sent a PM to Matt Miller re this very subject (he posted a series of 3 threads in 2009 on the lubrication of Mirage Drives here: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=12577) but a lot has happened to the drives since 2009 & we now need up to date information, straight from the horse's mouth re the new Mirage Drives with Glide Technology!
Author:  Yakass [ Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
It is definitely not a good idea to spray lubricants into the sprockets, drums and idler pulley. A good marine grease is far more effective. I use Inox MX8 for this,which may actually be overkill, but it works well. I am not a huge fan of WD40 at all and it surprises me Hobie continue to recommend it. It rinses off fairly quickly I find, and in my experience Lanox, Inox and Inox+ all work much better (I've become a big fan of the latter), though I only use this on the chains. I am very particular about making sure that the exposed bit of cable between chain and swedge gets a good squirt. If corrosion is going to form, it will appear here first, and is where it can do the most potential damage.

I am religious about rinsing after use, and I strip my drive down at least once a year (always prior to an expedition trip) and clean inside the drums/sprockets/idler pully), inspect every component and re-grease. My drive is always tip-top in both appearance and performance. After years of dealing with Hobie customers it astounds how many people will neglect their drives.
Author:  aprie [ Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
Thanks Josh - so you'd use the Inox MX8 spray and grease over the Lanox and Lanotec - or is the Lanox still OK for the spray?
Author:  Yakass [ Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A case against spray lubing your drive
I'm using the MX8 grease inside the drums, sprockets and idler pulley (and I make sure a good amount of it gets into it by smearing it inside using a zip tie, coat the shafts, and push a glob of it in). Do not use MX5 grease for this as it can act as a cutting agent and will cause wear on the shafts faster (could be my imagination but I think I noticed this with Lanotec grease as well). However, I am using Inox + MX5 to spray down the chains, swedges, etc.

Standard Inox also works well for this, and Lanox to. Lanox will last longer than Inox or Inox + but there is concern from some that the thicker viscosity will attract sand particles. I never found this to be a problem, but a colleague insisted it 'may' be an issue so we came to a compromise and started testing Inox +. It seems to work really well.
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