1. Are you using the standard rudder or the large "sailing" rudder?
2, Are your directional rudder lines snug or loose when the rudder is down and straight?
3. If you have the new Vantage seat, is it in the low position?
| Hobie Forums http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/ |
|
| Handling suggestions for following seas? http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58568 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | Scurvy [ Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Handling suggestions for following seas? |
Yesterday, I flipped my Revo-16 in 2'-3' following seas thanks to a bonehead sailor who cut me off within 8' or 10' -- basically, I needed to trim in her direction but doing so would have resulted in a collision or a very near miss. Shortly before that, I had a couple of roll ups that really came close to becoming a full flip, again in the following seas, and I've experienced this a few times before. Does anyone have any tips on how to deal w/ this condition? In a traditional kayak, one is paddling and gets to use the paddle for bracing. Obviously, that's an option w/ the Revo's, but it seems like being able to put the constant power virtue of the Mirage Drive to use would be good, but that normally entails using the rudder for guidance, and paddling would eliminate that control. I can pull up the rudder and use the paddle for steerage, but didn't try that yet. TIA, Bradley |
|
| Author: | SafariNZ [ Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
Hi, I got a bigger rudder to help as I found the std one came out of the water so I lost steering. Another thing I do in a big following sea is put out a sea anchor (like a wind sock at an airport). I attach it to my anchor rope so it fixed at the stern and trail it about 20ft behind the kayak. I put a sinker on it so it stays under well under water. It slows me down a little but not too much due to the following sea and wind, it keeps the boat straight and you get the occasional wave hitting you in the back :). Cheers Owen |
|
| Author: | Roadrunner [ Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
1. Are you using the standard rudder or the large "sailing" rudder? 2, Are your directional rudder lines snug or loose when the rudder is down and straight? 3. If you have the new Vantage seat, is it in the low position?
|
|
| Author: | WAVERIDER [ Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
It is a weakness in the 16 and where you notice the tippiness. Under paddle lack of rudder functionality is a problem if you opt to paddle, which does seem to increase feel of balance, and allows you to dig in if rudder is not enough The advantage of the revo 16 over the old adventure is that you can shift your weight slightly on the vantage seat allowing better edging. It takes a fair bit of practice but the revo 16 is more responsive than the old adventure. You do have to pay attention though and practice. I go at a slight angle to following seas so that you can predict which way it is trying to swing you. Dont try surfing the wave, let it pass and concentrate on steering then power on as wave passes. Practice, practice practice..its panic that tips you. |
|
| Author: | siravingmon [ Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
I'll second all the above advice, particularly sitting as low as you can (ditch the vantage seat if need be to get even lower), adding the biggest rudder you can and moving your body from side to side as required I'd also add peddling as though your life depended on it when a following wave is about to hit you to reduce the relative speed between your boat and the wave, and lying back as far/supine as you possibly can to maintain control (again, ditch the vantage seat if it doesnt allow this) |
|
| Author: | Scurvy [ Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
This is all very helpful, thank you! Yes, I have switched to the large rudder. After a bit of reflection, I did notice that I was getting better results with a slight diagonal run down the wave faces, so I anticipate doing the downwind version of tacking upwind, which is to follow a slightly zigzagging course so that I am set for the proper side to which to brace to. This incident came about I guess because the sailboat was a big, and therefore fast catamaran that snuck up on me. I was unaware of its presence until I turned towards it for one of my diagonal runs, and the SOB was less than 20' away and on a collision course with my new "tack." Of course, I shouted to "yield," which he did not do, and I started to turn away myself, but this happened right as the first of the double waves reached me, then the 2nd wave got a hold of the boat. This was out in the middle of SF Bay, not exactly a constrained place to boat. Seat in LOW position is key, but I would like to have some knee straps for better railing/bracing control. Maybe I'll install some.... Yes, practice, practice, practice. I also got better results by really paying attention to keeping my head over the boat's centerline, but all in all, the SOT is much, much more disconnected from me than my sit inside sea kayak, which I "wear" when paddling, and that delays my sensing of the balance and seems to cut off my ability to quickly rail the boat. |
|
| Author: | Scurvy [ Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
SafariNZ wrote: Hi, I got a bigger rudder to help as I found the std one came out of the water so I lost steering. Another thing I do in a big following sea is put out a sea anchor (like a wind sock at an airport). I attach it to my anchor rope so it fixed at the stern and trail it about 20ft behind the kayak. I put a sinker on it so it stays under well under water. It slows me down a little but not too much due to the following sea and wind, it keeps the boat straight and you get the occasional wave hitting you in the back  .Cheers Owen I've heard of sailboats deploying sea anchors in storm conditions in order to maintain a square to the waves direction of travel, but hadn't thought about that option for kayaks. I'll consider that next time, but sailboats need to stay square since they can't rail up on the wavefront, and I found the wind fetch made for some chaotic wave paths. It was that sudden change-of-direction slapping around that got me. |
|
| Author: | WAVERIDER [ Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
Take advantage of a sit on top by throwing your legs (saddling) as a last emergency resort. It slows you down allowing wave to pass and adds balance. Drogues out the back are going to be a tangle risk especially with the rudder. Have heard it used for surf exits, but obviously slows you down. Trying to race the waves is a double edged sword, it reduces speed difference but increases time spent face down ass up, if the bow digs in at speed it can be harder to compensate.. If you are a fisho, dont troll or do and other distracting activity, you need to be always be paying attention. One of the reasons the 16 is not popular with many fishos as they are not paying attention a lot of the time. A revo 16 heads into the waves is a huge buzz though and where it really shines. Makes you feel alive |
|
| Author: | JohnL [ Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
I have a Revo 16, and have been in those conditions. I lay my paddle across my lap, holding on with my right hand, and steering with my left hand. When I start surfing, I loosely hold the paddle in both hands, and low brace or stern rudder as needed to prevent broaching. It is fast and fun. When that surf run is over, I reach down with my left hand and start steering again. Start your stern rudder early to prevent weather cocking. The Revo 16 is relatively easy to keep straight. |
|
| Author: | Scurvy [ Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
JohnL wrote: I have a Revo 16, and have been in those conditions. I lay my paddle across my lap, holding on with my right hand, and steering with my left hand. When I start surfing, I loosely hold the paddle in both hands, and low brace or stern rudder as needed to prevent broaching. It is fast and fun. When that surf run is over, I reach down with my left hand and start steering again. Start your stern rudder early to prevent weather cocking. The Revo 16 is relatively easy to keep straight. Interesting. This is what I was doing, more or less, and found that the rudder wouldn't stay put, it got moved around, so that becomes a challenge when paddling. Of course, I can pull the rudder up and steer w/ the paddle strokes, but I would like to be able to lock/keep that rudder into position if paddling. Yes, I watched some YT vids of sea kayakers playing in the waves, and like surfers, they choose an angled run direction (NOT straight down the wave face) and brace on that side -- they commit early, and turns involve body roll and full commitment to railing into any new direction. |
|
| Author: | WAVERIDER [ Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
i tried laying paddle across lap, not so easy when you are pumping the pedals and a pain when paddle tips accidentally catch water. Perhaps it takes practice, or maybe its the angle its held? |
|
| Author: | siravingmon [ Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
I feel that I need to be going fast when that following wave hits so that the rudder still has bite. If the rudder still bites, I want one hand free to be able to operate the tiller, if it doesn't bite, I'm surprised/ impressed that you can control the direction of such a big, heavy kayak as a revo 16 with a low brace. I'm not sure I could on mine (2014 AI minus outriggers) |
|
| Author: | pmmpete [ Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
I think a reason that Mirage Drive kayaks tend to get dumped over when heading towards the beach through surf, or when the kayak gets surfed by a large following wave, is because the Mirage Drive fins cause the nose of the kayak to suddenly veer to the left or the right, the fins and the rudder catch water sideways, and the wave pushes the kayak over towards the beach. Boom! There is a reason why the fins are at the rear of a surfboard, not a third of the way back from the nose. The fins on a surfboard tend to turn the board down the fall line of a wave. As soon as Mirage Drive fins get turned to the left or right of the direction of travel of the kayak, the kayak tries to spin 180 degrees so the fins will be towards the rear of the kayak. But as soon as the kayak gets turned sideways, the Mirage Drive fins catch water sideways, and Boom! One way to avoid this kind of mishap is by developing a reflex of instantly pushing one pedal all the way forward if you get caught by a wave and start surfing. This is counter-intuitive, because the tendency is to brace both feet against the pedals, which leaves the fins sticking straight down below the kayak, which sets you up for the dump maneuver described above. Boom! If you push one pedal all the way forward, the fins go up against the bottom of the kayak, which helps you survive a front surf, and lets you side surf on the pile without getting dumped over. A better way to avoid this kind of mishap is by pulling up the Mirage Drive, pulling up the rudder, and paddling the kayak in through surf. And if you really want to be able to control your kayak when paddling in surf or rough waves, attach mounts for thigh straps to your kayak, and clip in the thigh straps before you paddle in through surf. |
|
| Author: | Roadrunner [ Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
Scurvy wrote: Interesting. This is what I was doing, more or less, and found that the rudder wouldn't stay put, it got moved around, so that becomes a challenge when paddling. Of course, I can pull the rudder up and steer w/ the paddle strokes, but I would like to be able to lock/keep that rudder into position if paddling. This is indicicative of loose rudder lines. If your directional control lines are taut (rudder down, locked and pointing straight back) the rudder will not wander. Further, your control handle will not move either without deliberate effort. In this way, you get instant control and much improved tracking. Keep in mind that your boat shrinks and swells with temperature. I tend to set it up when it's cooler and have a little over-tightness when it warms up than visa versa. a small amount of slack makes all the difference in how much correction you make and how often.In a following sea (not talking about surf here), especially with a cross swell, you can't see what's about to happen -- that makes it really tough. I imagine it's like getting bounced around on top of a bull. With my (pre-Vantage) Adventure, I can edge the boat with my hips -- IMO the secret is to keep loose. The other thing that helps is to keep the free hand on the boat handle and use this to keep yourself upright (usually the boats don't capsize until you fall out). Of course, the large rudder makes a huge difference in preventing broaching. If you still want more "bite" you can add a winglet -- looks like this:   
|
|
| Author: | WAVERIDER [ Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Handling suggestions for following seas? |
pmmpete wrote: One way to avoid this kind of mishap is by developing a reflex of instantly pushing one pedal all the way forward if you get caught by a wave and start surfing. This is counter-intuitive, because the tendency is to brace both feet against the pedals, which leaves the fins sticking straight down below the kayak, which sets you up for the dump maneuver described above. Boom! If you push one pedal all the way forward, the fins go up against the bottom of the kayak, which helps you survive a front surf, and lets you side surf on the pile without getting dumped over. Lack of any rocker, and a footwell that has a water holding capacity of a small bath tub doesn't help if you get swamped causing instability (new vantage seatwell doesn't improve this). Pulling drive helps this drain quicker. Storing a pulled drive safely in a high risk tipping situation is another matter |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|