Great Job! A lot of people don't realize that Hobies can be pretty darned fast. Were you using Turbofins?
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| Maiden voyage was a race http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=63142 |
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| Author: | Spudman [ Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Maiden voyage was a race |
I bought a 2014 Revo 13 a couple of weeks ago, and something has come up every day to prevent me from taking it out. Weather took most of the first week and then my kayak buddies all left town for vacations. I decided I would get it in the water this weekend no matter what. It turned out that there was a kayak/paddleboard race scheduled at the lake for this weekend. There were several races and classes within each race. This is where you see the guys with carbon fiber surf skis with rules about drafting other boats. It was too late to sign up for anything but the "fun run" which was a mile and a half "open to anyone" with no sub-classes. That was perfect since I don't plan on racing and I hadn't even peddled the boat. Our start was with the 3 mile racers so there were a fair amount of surf ski's and performance kayaks in the group. We started and I stayed with the pack pretty well. I was bottoming out the fins too much and over steering, but by the finish I had a better technique. When I crossed the finish the timer guy said something about not anticipating peddle powered kayaks (there were three). He also said I finished first. I checked the online times and I averaged a little over 4.6 mph and finished 3 1/2 minutes ahead of the second place boat. Not too bad for the maiden voyage. I also met a nice couple on a Hobie tandem. It was their first time using turbo fins. They told me after the race that they averaged 4.2 and had never been able to average over 4 mph with the old fins. |
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| Author: | Roadrunner [ Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Great Job! A lot of people don't realize that Hobies can be pretty darned fast. Were you using Turbofins?
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| Author: | Spudman [ Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Roadrunner wrote: Great Job! A lot of people don't realize that Hobies can be pretty darned fast. Were you using Turbofins? I was using the shorter ST fins and a sailing rudder. |
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| Author: | fusioneng [ Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
That’s kind of a misnomer about the turbo fins. Of course they are bigger and more powerful, as a result you can go faster, but in order to go faster you expend more energy. I’m not out there to beat or race anyone, we like to do touring, and exploring rivers, sometimes out all day. We meander along at a sustainable pedal pace of around 40 cpm, ( cycles per minute), which is similar to a walking pace energy usage wise. We are always on tandem hobies (our preference), but 90% of the time I’m the only one pedaling, ( the wife pedals when I’m resting). The result is we can travel much further with the turbo fins and expend much less energy. In my opinion pedaling the smaller fins at a faster pace, (45-50 cps) to go an acceptable pace expends more energy than pedaling the turbo fins to the same speed at 40 cps. I suspect where everyone goes wrong is trying to pedal at 50 cps or faster with the big turbo fins, which expends much more muscle energy, (walking pace vs running pace). We are often out with regular recreational paddle kayaks, and often all keep pace with each other, ( kinda of pointless to race miles ahead). For that reason I like the turbo fins, not to go faster, but to go further expending less energy. The main reason we liked our TI kayaks so much was because they glide and track extremely well expending very little energy, even when loaded down. FE |
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| Author: | Roadrunner [ Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Spudman wrote: I was using the shorter ST fins and a sailing rudder. Congratulations on your win! As well as you did with the STs, I think you will find Turbofins will extend your Revo 13's capabilities even further (whether it's speed, range, acceleration, or towing your buddy(s) back in bad weather, or in this case, upstream):  It's like putting a bigger engine under the hood of your car!
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| Author: | fusioneng [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
That is truly one of the unique features of the mirage drive propulsion system. Several times we have been out with recreational paddle yaks, (mostly family members visiting from up north) trying to go against wind, tides, or currents. Where they get very frustrated. It’s quite a distance from the launch to the mangrove tunnels, ( our destination). Us with the hobies typically hook up to another paddle yak and tow them thru the rough areas, once we get to the miles of mangrove tunnels and many backwater lakes everyone separates and has the time of their lives exploring. Of course it’s a given that we are experienced kayakers and are out there most weekends ourselves, and some of our relatives from up north have very little kayak experience. This is only conjecture on my part, but I have a feeling even if I had a high end paddle yak, or one with the pedal prop system, I suspect I wouldn’t be able do that, (tow other yaks upwind). I suspect this is a unique feature of the Hobie mirage system. Side by side by side all three individually, (high end paddle, prop type pedal, and hobie mirage turbo) all keep up with each other fairly well, (fairly equal) speedwise on calm flat water with no wind. I can’t explain why, I just know it works. I wonder if anyone has actually tested this. Just an observation on my part. FE |
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| Author: | Spudman [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
fusioneng wrote: That is truly one of the unique features of the mirage drive propulsion system. Several times we have been out with recreational paddle yaks, (mostly family members visiting from up north) trying to go against wind, tides, or currents. Where they get very frustrated. It’s quite a distance from the launch to the mangrove tunnels, ( our destination). Us with the hobies typically hook up to another paddle yak and tow them thru the rough areas, once we get to the miles of mangrove tunnels and many backwater lakes everyone separates and has the time of their lives exploring. Of course it’s a given that we are experienced kayakers and are out there most weekends ourselves, and some of our relatives from up north have very little kayak experience. This is only conjecture on my part, but I have a feeling even if I had a high end paddle yak, or one with the pedal prop system, I suspect I wouldn’t be able do that, (tow other yaks upwind). I suspect this is a unique feature of the Hobie mirage system. Side by side by side all three individually, (high end paddle, prop type pedal, and hobie mirage turbo) all keep up with each other fairly well, (fairly equal) speedwise on calm flat water with no wind. I can’t explain why, I just know it works. I wonder if anyone has actually tested this. Just an observation on my part. FE I have a question about the turbo fins and the mangrove tunnels. We go to Sarasota with our kayaks twice a year to fish and explore the tunnels. I'm concerned that the larger fins would hang up in the tunnels (the sailing rudder too, as I don't really want to cut it down). Do you have any problems with this? I know the flats can get pretty shallow too depending on the tides, but maneuverability isn't as much of a problem on them and it should be easier to butterfly the fins. |
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| Author: | fusioneng [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
We are also avid kayak sailers, actually we have never launched a hobie without a kayak sail strapped to the side of the boat, ( not even once), just in case we find wind. We also had the big sailing rudders on all our hobies, (loved them). But we found we could kayak sail just as well with the lopped off rudders. And could also go thru much shallower water with the lopped off rudder down, basically no net loss in functionality. We all kind of know the the hobies track a little better with the rudder down. What we do when approaching the shallows and mangrove tunnels is get our paddles out, I sometimes stuff a rag under the steering knob to keep the rudder straight, (we had older hobies). We typically then put the bungy on one of the mirage pedals, you can still pedal just fine with the bungy on. We then go thru with the fins up against the bottom of the boat, ( we never remove our mirage drives for any reason, even beaching). In the tunnels and the shallow water ( typically about 8” deep at low tide), we just use our double ended paddles, and try to shallow pedal, (butterfly pedal) whenever we can. Sure once in a while a mirage rod gets bent, but they are easily straightened. We replace the rods and fins every once in a while as I consider them consumable items. In ten years across many hobies, we only ripped a couple fins, which were easily repaired. Most of those rips were caused by novice users on our kayaks. Maybe we were just lucky. FE |
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| Author: | Spudman [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Thank you for the reply. I guess cutting down the rudder is acceptable although I still hate to do it. I've seen a few pictured on the forum and it doesn't look too difficult to do. |
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| Author: | fusioneng [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
You have been back in those shallows yourself, it’s really fun for our kids and grand kids from up north, they always talk about how fun it is and want to go again next time. That butterfly shallow pedaling takes a lot of practice. But once you get good at it you can go almost as fast as normal pedaling, (lol except in weeds, that part sucks). If we have a long distance to shallow pedal we will move one of the mirage pedals to position 6 or 7, leaving the other one on 4. Makes butterfly pedaling seem more normal. I much prefer shallow pedaling with a little help from the paddle, than to just paddle. I have a bad back and paddling is not fun for me. Beside we normally go thru those mangrove tunnels via the brail method, we bounce off most everything, and use our paddles more for pushing off than paddling. I prefer to shallow pedal thru the tunnels, but that’s just our preference. Sorry for hijacking the thread. FE |
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| Author: | Roadrunner [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Spudman wrote: I guess cutting down the rudder is acceptable although I still hate to do it. You don't have to cut the rudder down, Even locked down, it will simply ride over an obsticle. I've never heard of one breaking. Your rudder pin is designed to break in case of overstress and Hobie includes a spare pin with every boat (underside of one of your hatches). Nevertheless, cutting the large (sailing) rudder is a very simple operation with a hack saw. If you're apprehensive, you can cut a little off and see how it works out, then try a little more. FWIW all my rudders have been reshaped according to their purpose. For instance, one for shallow water, one for high speed reverse, one for racing, etc. One even has a winglet. For kayak use, your large rudder has lots of surplus area so you can afford to be creative. This same rudder was used with the early AIs (higher speeds, larger sail area, 3 hulls), which place a larger demand on rudder performance. A note of caution -- the small rudder is too small to be modified. This post only applies to the large rudder. Likewise, let me suggest that Turbos offer no penalty in shallow water. Your technique is the determining factor in whether you can effectively use any fins in shallow water. 1, If you learn how to flutter fins aginst the hull, Turbos take up no more depth than STs and offer a little more thrust. 2. If you pedal lithtly and keep your speed down, the fins will glance off most objects with no problems. 3. If it really gets shallow, you can pin the fins up against the hull and break out the paddle. 4. Good planning. The tide plays a big role in mangrove tunnel navigation from what I hear -- much greater than Turbofins (which are only 2" longer than STs). As fusioneng says, the worst that can happen is a bent mast -- easy enough to straighten out.
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| Author: | Spudman [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
I've been through the tunnels, but it was in my old kayak without a peddle drive. Even then I had to separate the paddle and row with one half in some of the narrow ones. You are right about feeling your way through. It's a lot of fun! Don't consider this as a hijack of my thread. I appreciate the feedback! Roadrunner, I think I found some pics of your rudders earlier when doing a search. I guess my question is how do you know what does what when you are cutting it down? I'd like good performance with or without a sail, good clearance in the shallows, what else? Do you have a good idea for an all around performer? Reverse isn't a big issue since I'd be paddling. I still have my original rudder as a fallback. Any suggestions on shaping a cutdown are greatly appreciated. |
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| Author: | Roadrunner [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Spudman wrote: I guess my question is how do you know what does what when you are cutting it down? I'd like good performance with or without a sail, good clearance in the shallows, what else? Do you have a good idea for an all around performer? Reverse isn't a big issue since I'd be paddling. Any suggestions on shaping a cutdown are greatly appreciated. From over 8 customized rudders, the best all around rudder is this one: I used this rudder for about 2 years and built it specifically for shallow water. Depending on the boat, this will take you down to 7 to 8" of water and in most applications it is about as shallow as the Mirage Drive when pinned against the hull. (remember that the boats have rocker so the Drive sits in the deepest part of the boat and extends a minimum of about 1.5" below the hull bottom). It also has very good low speed authority for fishing and works well with the Hobie sail. Here are some considerations. A rudder's effectiveness depends on size and location. With Hobie kayaks I consider 2 primary zones -- behind the boat and beneath the boat. The behind-the-boat portion sits in wake and burble, whereas the beneath-the-boat portion is exposed to relatively clear water. This is the part that is most important when considering options. This next pic shows a small rudder superimposed on a large rudder. The red line roughly delineates the 2 zones. The white line shows where the cut is to be made.  Notice, even though the cut rudder is now shallower than the small rudder, it retains about twice the clear water area and substantially more burble area as well. The squared off bottom allows the maximum area below the boat with the minimum depth. Can you take off more? Sure, but it will lose some of it's excellent authority. Here I reduced the area even more to make it more efficient by radiusing the leading edge. There was a loss in authority, especially noticeable with the longer boats. It's ideal for the Revo 11 though. I have not tried it sailing, so would be reluctant to recommend it in that capacity at this time.  To make the rudder, use your small rudder as a depth gauge and chalk a line across the large rudder parallel to the top edge. A hack saw makes a nice cut, fairly steraight. If you use a sabre saw or jig saw, use a fine tooth blade. A file rounds off any sharp edges and medium and fine sand paper (wet-dry if you have it) finishes it. Pretty simple operation. Disadvantages? With large swells and following seas, rudder depth is helpful when the stern pops out and for broach control. Also, this design does not have an efficient shape or aspect ratio as rudders go, but unless you're racing, it doesn't matter. Even then it's a minor point with our kayak speeds. Here's a stern pic with the rudder scooting along in about 10" of water showing a Turbofin mud signature in a full flutter mode.  Customizing your equipment and technique can open up a lot of doors!
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| Author: | Spudman [ Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Thank you, Roadrunner. This is exactly the information I needed! |
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| Author: | fusioneng [ Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maiden voyage was a race |
Those mud trails remind me of a problem we always have. There are a gazzilian sea birds around here called komarants (not spelled correctly I’m sure). They love Hobie kayaks and hunt us down, They know the mirage drives stir up the bottom and dive under the boat to catch fish. We have had at times a half dozen of them swimming under and around the boat. We don’t see that so much with regular kayaks or powerboats. It’s like they recognize us, and don’t appear to have any fear of us. Therein lies the problem, when the water is very shallow there isn’t enough room under the boat, many times I have to stop pedaling in fear of hurting the birds diving under the boat. I swear when they come to the surface with a fish they are showing it to me. The birds have long skinny necks and we often see the bulge from a 2-3” long fish halfway down the birds necks, ( I have no idea how they do it). Most of the islands and mangroves around here are also bird sancuaries, and there are miles and miles of backwaters, however quite a bit of it is only 8-10” deep at low tide, when shallow pedaling we leave those exact mud trails. Many of those lakes are only accessible by kayak thru mangrove tunnels, so no powerboats. We like it that way. Just a funny story about shallow pedaling, lol all the newbies pull their mirage drives. FE |
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