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| H18se Spinnaker Design Project http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=53396 |
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| Author: | moncasta [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
I just read through 8 pages of H18 Spinnaker threads or threads referencing spinnakers, so here goes nothing! I recently got a job at a local sail loft to help develop and design better beach cat products. As an avid H18 and H20 enthusiast, I have a bit of a bias towards developing toys for my boats whenever I can. On this list for this winter is a spinnaker for open class racing and overall fun sailing. I've seen various discussions on the shapes of asymmetrical spinnakers to use, and a number of systems. I'm planning on going with a snuffer, and a cut-off windsurfer mast, made to fit whatever size is good. I've seen specs from 8-12'. I'm looking to build a rig for the 5-13knt range. Anything above that and it's usually pretty gusty or choppy. My asymmetrical/cat spinnaker experience is negligible. I like the idea of the ratcheting blocks attached to shrouds or jib tracks, with a turning block somewhere else if needed to control the clew position. Who has an H18se/ magnum with a spin setup? What sort of spin do you have? What retrieval system do you have? Photos? What works, what doesn't work? Who wants one if this project goes well? Any help would be appreciated! |
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| Author: | John Lunn [ Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Tom Please email me, and I'll send you a zillion pictures of my spin set up based on a design from Jeremy of Surf City. This uses a Tiger spin pole and mid pole snuffer system with a custom spin from Chip at Whirlwind. lunnjohn 'at' magma dot ca Saturday night, my son and I picked up our awards for this past season..... four small ones (e.g. 2nd place Summer Series), and the big one, the Keenan Trophy for 'best catamaran results for the year'. We needed the spin to get us there. later |
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| Author: | Kaos [ Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Sounds like a fun project. I might have some interest in your project. I have raced spinnakers with Cats for about 30 years. Started with the Hobie 21 spinnaker, which was back when the spinnaker designs came from mono hull sailors. They wanted power, thinking going deep was the answer. What I found was big fat spinnakers on a cat, while they will work, they have a self limiting top speed. The key to catamaran speed is apparent wind. Meaning you build your speed and then you will naturally have to bear down, however now you are going deeper with speed. The old fat spinnakers would have a top speed where their very size had drag involved which seem counter productive. Over the years I moved to a Prindle 19 with spinnaker. Had great luck with a tornado designed spin on that boat. Much flatter than the folks of the day were using. Fast forward to today and I am partners in an RC27. We had a large spinnaker on that boat which was very fast, but we noticed disadvantages with our spinnaker against the newer F18's and such. So we threw caution to the wind and jumped in with roller furling code zeros like the America's Cup 45's are using. That has us really working with total apparent wind. Very fast, however the key will be whether we can compete on a pure down wind leg versus another RC27 with a conventional spinnaker. In time we will know more however initial races are very encouraging. Down in the Florida Keys, Rick came up with this concept he called it a hooter. Same thing basically. I suspect shapes have improved dramatically since then. Basically this is a long story to say I am more in favor of a roller fuller system rather than the old hoist and douse of the spinnakers. All this said, the Hobie 18 may not be a feasible platform for total commitment to apparent wind versus conventional spinnakers of today. For fun I currently have 2 Hobie 18's for the family to have just good old fun on. For the occasional distance race, a spinnaker would make it even more fun. Just food for thought, Cheers |
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| Author: | wscotterwin [ Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Hmmm. Furling. Makes me think of the Hobie Pearl.  Tom, Seems much simpler and I have most of the parts. Pole, furler...... I am assuming the comp tip can handle the pressure but I also have a solid mast. I have a snuffer too if you are looking for one. |
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| Author: | ramstadt [ Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Forgive the stupid question, but coming from monohulls where we use spinnakers to head straight down wind, I'm guessing that the spinnaker on a cat is designed to help on a broad reach in light winds. Is there a max wind speed where you can use this? Would you actually consider a dead run on a cat with a spinnaker or would you still restrict yourself to broad reaches? With no backstay, what is the danger of your mast coming down when using a spinnaker? Bob |
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| Author: | John Lunn [ Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Bob Welcome to multihulls. You'll have to throw out most of the physics you learned on mono-slugs. Cats are designed under different parameters and behave quite differently. For Xmas, why not ask for that wonderful book 'High Performance Sailing 2' by Dr. Frank Bethwaite. Find some quiet time to read and absorb a lifetime of the study of apparent wind. Cats love apparent wind. Dead downwind (or wing-on-wing) works well for monohulls. Cats work best if they 'tack downwind', using the apparent wind. It's all about VMG. We usually head at about 135 degrees off the wind, heading to about 120 to 'heat it up', and then bearing away to as much as 155 to 'cool it off'. We sail in a series of softly scalloped turns, constantly adjusting to the conditions. When it is really gusty, we'll do from about 145 to 165 off the wind. Downwind, the heavier the wind the better, and we've often clocked 20 knots, which can be real scary. With high volume in the hulls, we've gone vertical once, but never pitched - no harm = no foul. In light winds, we have used the spin to go upwind. Yikes! Before we raise the spin, we sheet in the main really tight and keep it there through the spin run. Any adjustments are done through the traveler. If we release the main, there is an excellent chance we will break the comp-tip or snap the mast at the hounds. Same applies to F18's and Tornado's. Try some searches on YouTube.... and hold on! |
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| Author: | thundley [ Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Tom, Ditto on John Lunn's post about the spinnaker design by Jeremy of Surf City in Santa Cruz. It sounds like I have the identical setup with the exception of the spinnaker itself which was sewn by a local sail maker in Santa Cruz (can't remember the name). Works very well on my 88 H18 Magnum. Tom H. 1988 H18M (Windraider) |
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| Author: | moncasta [ Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Jeremy does good work. |
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| Author: | srm [ Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
This discussion of putting a spinnaker on the H18 and the picture of the Pearl reminds me of a similar post a few years back. I really think there is a void in the racing program for a strict one-design spinnaker class. I personally, am definitely interested in spinnaker racing, but I have very little interest in formula style racing. It is too much of an arms race. Having a racing class for a boat like the pearl or a H18 spinnaker class seems appealing to me. I realize that the immediate reaction to a suggestion like a H18 spinnaker class is that it is a bad idea and will cause a splintering of the class. That may be true. But it may also be an opportunity to revitalize the class if done properly. I know the H16 class toyed with this idea several years back and the class ultimately did not go through with the change. Perhaps the H18 is a more appropriate platform for a one-design spinnaker class. sm |
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| Author: | jim-doty [ Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
srm wrote: I personally, am definitely interested in spinnaker racing, but I have very little interest in formula style racing. It is too much of an arms race. Having a racing class for a boat like the pearl or a H18 spinnaker class seems appealing to me. sm I agree wholeheartedly with Steve. I would be really excited to race the H-18 as a one design spinnaker boat! Jim |
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| Author: | moncasta [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Well if we come up with a good setup, we'll see how it goes! |
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| Author: | Cork Guy [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Hi Tom, Please let me know if I can help I have 3 spinnakers that you can look at. My pole setup is a tiger mid pole with a SNU bag. We sailed the Delta Ditch Run and The Big Pumpkin with spins last year and had a good time at both events. Looking forward I plan to sail the Ditch Run again and I might do a MHRA race next year since they will allow using a spin. 91 H18 SX White Hulls with Spin 84 H18 Cinnamon Hulls With Hooter 81 H18 White Hulls For Sale $1750 setup for racing My latest rescue! 81 H18 White Hulls waiting to be restored. 80 H18 Blue Hulls For Sale cheap beginner boat $750 or part out. |
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| Author: | OlderBowman [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
I agree with Steve and Jim and would be keenly interested. I think a one design H18 with spinnaker would stimulate the class, not to mention add challenge to downwind legs. I also believe it has to be one design with sail area, maximum girth and length of pole set by the class association. I try to avoid handicap races whenever possible. I detest the PHRF races we do on our racing mono. my 2ยข. |
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| Author: | moncasta [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
I wouldn't push for a class development unless we got our numbers back up... our division has between 4 and 10 H18s at a Hobie event. I wouldn't want to risk splitting that up. If some have a 0-2 boat turn out, it may be worth investigating further. The only thing I'm concerned with right now is getting something setup that works well. If we get ten setup the same way, I'd be surprised. It would be a pleasant surprise... |
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| Author: | Cork Guy [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: H18se Spinnaker Design Project |
Hi Tom, The NOR for the 25th Anniversary Delta Ditch Run has been posted for Saturday June 6th 2015. We did the race last year in 9hrs 15min and we probably had our spin up for 8 hours during the event. You should come and give us some competition. http://www.regattanetwork.com/event/9298#_home |
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