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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5197
Location: Detroit, MI
BboySlug wrote:
Is the rigging/tuning process described above for all wind velocities? Or does exactly what hole you attach here, and how far you rake the mast, differ for various wind velocities?

What I've outlined above is a good starting point for moderate wind (10-12 kts). Once you've established your baseline, then you make adjustments according to the conditions.

Rick White's "Three W's" - Wind, Weight, Waves - is a good approach about how to make adjustments:

Wind - obviously, you want maximum power up to a point where more power is undesirable - you can't hold the boat down and it's hard to sail.
Weight - not just positioning (forward as much as possible), but amount. More weight = more power. Less weight = less power.
Waves - it takes energy to punch through waves, so if it's lumpy, you want more power.

Ways to gain power - stand the rig up a bit (jib halyard tighter, 1 hole up on the side stays), looser downhaul, main traveler centered, be careful not to oversheet the sails. Battens in tight, softer battens in the top of the jib. In lumpy and light conditions, travel out the main about 6" to keep it from stalling and don't try to point so high going upwind.

Ways to bleed power off - travel out the main (sometimes as far as the hiking strap), travel out the jib (to keep from backwinding the main), downhaul on tight (upwind), ease jib halyard slightly (never ease the jib halyard so much that the forestay is taking the mast load). Side stays down one hole. Battens looser (wrinkles out, but that's it), stiffer battens in top of the jib.

All this stuff is not just about racing - it makes the boat easier and more enjoyable to sail. If you're fighting the boat all the time, you're not having fun - and something's not set up right.


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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 2:28 pm
Posts: 91
Location: Chicago
Quote:
All this stuff is not just about racing - it makes the boat easier and more enjoyable to sail. If you're fighting the boat all the time, you're not having fun - and something's not set up right.


All this advice rings very true. Would you, MBounds, recommend they get a basic setup established then redrill rudders if they have to, or keep the standing rigging (ie: mast) set up within ranges of acceptable tiller pull and leave the rudders alone? Too much pull on the tiller makes it much less enjoyable for me. My mast on my 1989 H16 stands a little straighter than some other boats, but I like how that feels on my boat. Sometimes, though, I wonder if I need to rethink the whole rig and go to the big mast rake the new boats use. I'm not real sure they can actually point any higher than me now, so I don't yet see the benefit of making sure I can go block to block on the main but I always like input on whether it's worthwhile to rethink that.

_________________
1989 H16
2009 H16 squaretop


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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 90
Location: South Carolina
MBounds: All:
Great tips, and once you understand it, it is not that complicated (It took me a couple of times to read through). Practice might involve some more skill and art, but we'll see how it goes. I am well experienced at sailing, but not rigging, so I can feel that 'cliff'. I will work on the rig and see if I can get some more speed.

LP: my recommendation on the rudders is to do those last. Get the sails rigged for your desired wind conditions, and then adjust your rudders. I have adjustable rudders, so once drilled close, fine tuning is easier. And though not your situation, my rudders holes were really off (left and right not even drilled the same), so re-drilling got me closer to desired and made a huge difference in steering.


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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:43 am
Posts: 12
MBounds wrote:
BboySlug wrote:
Is the rigging/tuning process described above for all wind velocities? Or does exactly what hole you attach here, and how far you rake the mast, differ for various wind velocities?

What I've outlined above is a good starting point for moderate wind (10-12 kts). Once you've established your baseline, then you make adjustments according to the conditions.

Rick White's "Three W's" - Wind, Weight, Waves - is a good approach about how to make adjustments:

Wind - obviously, you want maximum power up to a point where more power is undesirable - you can't hold the boat down and it's hard to sail.
Weight - not just positioning (forward as much as possible), but amount. More weight = more power. Less weight = less power.
Waves - it takes energy to punch through waves, so if it's lumpy, you want more power.

Ways to gain power - stand the rig up a bit (jib halyard tighter, 1 hole up on the side stays), looser downhaul, main traveler centered, be careful not to oversheet the sails. Battens in tight, softer battens in the top of the jib. In lumpy and light conditions, travel out the main about 6" to keep it from stalling and don't try to point so high going upwind.

Ways to bleed power off - travel out the main (sometimes as far as the hiking strap), travel out the jib (to keep from backwinding the main), downhaul on tight (upwind), ease jib halyard slightly (never ease the jib halyard so much that the forestay is taking the mast load). Side stays down one hole. Battens looser (wrinkles out, but that's it), stiffer battens in top of the jib.

All this stuff is not just about racing - it makes the boat easier and more enjoyable to sail. If you're fighting the boat all the time, you're not having fun - and something's not set up right.


MBounds, would you be able to provide this same methodology "Ways to gain power" and "ways to bleed power" for both a Hobie 14 and Hobie 18. I find this type of advice so helpful. Anything would be appreciated.

Regards,

Codie


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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5197
Location: Detroit, MI
The same principles apply to all sailboats.

There have been many books written about how to "shift gears" on sailboats and Hobie Cats in particular.

Tuning Guides on Hobie Class Website - http://hcana.hobieclass.com/hobie-tuning/

Hobie 18 Performance Manual - available from Murray's - https://www.murrays.com/product/45-0031/
Image

Murray's also has the book from which all this came from:
https://www.murrays.com/product/book-ca ... r-the-90s/
Image

You can also find these books on eBay and other used book places. Both are out of print.


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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:26 pm
Posts: 572
Location: Harsens Island, Michigan
Hi Matt, I realize this is a 18 year old thread, but still valuable information. One of the older guys I race against seems to have good success sailing directly down wind in light air. He does hold the jib way out to get 'wing and wing'. I am trying to understand what strategy works best in which situations (wind, waves) when sailing down wind. It seems that is where I lose the most ground on the leaders. Sometimes I seem to be faster way off the wind with loose sails and other times only 30-40 degrees away from directly down wind with sails traveled out but sheeted in tighter. I don't have enough experience to know when each should be used. Can you share some insights?

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1979 Hobie 16 "Orange Crusher"
2017 Hobie 16 "Cayman" sails 114795
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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:39 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 4176
Location: Jersey Shore
Sailing dead downwind almost never pays off on a catamaran. The only time it may be beneficial is in super light wind (like 3mph or less), where you can’t build any apparent wind and so you’re better off shooting straight for the mark and sailing the shortest distance. Otherwise, keep the bridle vane at roughly 90 degrees. You sail a longer distance, but make up for it by going faster. Sailing a broad reach also allows you to play the gusts and wind shifts rather than your course being locked in to a straight run to the leeward mark.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: sail trim question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:38 am 
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:28 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Bristol, IN
Your description sounds a lot like what I went through a couple years ago, might be worth looking into where your jib is pinned and how your foot/leech are tensioned if you haven't already. Turns out in my case, I was pinned too low, this opened up the leech a lot when trimmed to head upwind. I'd have to fall off quite a bit in order to get proper flow around the jib, and the main would be quick to over sheet. It was a task to make much headway upwind. Once I rolled under the boom and took a look straight up on the lee side, I realized that the jib leech was way open. I incrementally pinned the jib higher and higher until there was equal tension on the foot & leech. Since then, I've been able to head up much higher and the main now trims as it should since I'm heading up farther. Long story short, in my case, my bridle wires came from an older boat which had shorter wires, so I was pinned way way low.


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