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Mast Rake
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=56676		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Tim H16 [ Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Mast Rake
The Hobie U. 2002 section on Hobie 16 Rigging and Tuning Guide by Wally Myers covers a lot about the upwind and downwind setup of your H16.

The reason I am asking about mast rake is that the Tampa Bay Cat Sailors just had their Hangover Regatta (Honeymoon Island to Sand Key in the Gulf and back thru the Intercoastal) on January 1st and the upwind and downwind legs were about six miles each. Of the 11 cats that finished, I was the only Hobie and it seemed that all the other cats (4.5 to 6+ meter) did a lot better in the upwind Gulf leg.

My question is, if you will be sailing for several hours continuously upwind (or downwind) in light, moderate or heavy air, what is the best rake for the mast?

For example, if I am sailing solo upwind with max rake (block to block), then my bows will be riding high out of the water, will this adversely affect my ability to point higher, keep the hull from wanting to fly too much or my speed? Would I be better with less rake and the bows riding just above the surface for long runs upwind?

Other than trying to avoid a pitchpole when going downwind, raking your mast more keeps your bows higher, but does this also slow you down?
Author:  Tim H16 [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
After reading a lot of the forum on mast rake, bows, etc. it appears that ideally the maximum rake is best since it moves the CE further back over the rudders so they act more like dagger boards. It also shows that the solo skipper should move forward more.

I weigh 220 and do not use the wire anymore (knee replacement) and prefer sitting aft next to the rear casting either on the tramp or rail with my aft heel anchored in the tramp lacing along the rear crossbar (helps to keep from sliding off). Unfortunately the combination of maximum mast rake and weight aft causes the bows to ride way out of the water a lot of the time.

If I am not going to move my weight forward, should I reduce my mast rake some in order level the boat out more and bring the leeward bow down?

Several Hobie sailors have told me they like to keep their leeward bow just skimming above the water surface.

So which is it? Do you want the leeward bow riding just above the water surface or up 12-16" above the surface?
Author:  MBounds [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
Tim H16 wrote:
Do you want the leeward bow riding just above the water surface or up 12-16" above the surface?
The leeward bow should just skim the surface. You need to move forward. Sitting in the back of the boat is very slow.
Author:  yelkenli [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
Stay forward on the boat. I find this is best for most points of sail.
Author:  Tim H16 [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
Will try moving forward more.

When I sat aft (either on the tramp or rail), I put my heel in the crossbar's tramp lacing which kept me from sliding off when flying a hull and more stable when leaning out over the water.

When sitting more forward on the tramp and flying a hull, how do you keep from sliding off? Putting your feet under the hiking straps and putting the rest of your body (above the knees) hanging out over the water is really not very comfortable for extended periods.

Are there any good videos showing how a solo (non trapeze) person sails a H16 in 10-20 mph winds? Maybe if I could visualize it then it would make more sense.
Author:  DavidBell47 [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
Tim,
You'll want to sit just far enough forward to keep the transoms out of the water (referring to Matt Bounds comment). As far as comfort goes, forget it. You can't have it both ways. Hiking out, as opposed to trapping out, can be a strenuous task, especially if you're not young and/or in great shape. Trapping out, being the more comfortable of the two, is what I would recommend.

You might also have to choose between comfort and performance. The closer your leeward hull is to the water without actually being in the water, the faster you will go. The higher that hull is out of the water, the more your body relies on balance and not chore strength.
Author:  richandpat [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
Great discussion, but still a little confusing. I've been sailing our H-16 since 1980 & still have an all aluminum mast and have never raked it aft. I replace my rigging occasionally with the longer shrouds and shorter forestay - just the way it came when I first bought the boat. I've read this discussion and others about the benefits of raking your mast, but aren't you defeating the purpose by keeping your weight forward in order to keep the bows just above the water line? I've only pitch-poled once, about 10 yrs. after I had been sailing, but it was my fault - not the rigging. The only time we keep our weight aft is when we're sailing in strong winds. We always try to keep the bows slightly above the water line; even when sailing downwind. Weight forward in light wind; Weight aft when sailing in stronger wind.....
It seems like it's easier to get under the boom when switching sides, especially as we're getting older, if the mast is NOT raked aft.
So.....What's the benefit of raking the mast if you're going to move your weight to the center or forward, and keep the bows just above theater line?
Author:  gcrozier [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
From what I have read, it helps to spill some wind from the sails in very high wind, and as Tim said, it can help the rudders act as centerboards and help the boat point better. There is some complex stuff that happens with mast rake, as it opens the pocket between the main and the jib more, but I don't claim to know what changes and how it would be beneficial.

Otherwise, I have not found a lot of scientific reasons as to why it helps...maybe I haven't looked hard enough. It seems that in races though, the boats with raked masts tend to do better than those boats without. As you said, it is far easier to move around the boat without the mast raked, so if you aren't racing, I wouldn't worry about it.

Just my $0.02... anybody have a better explanation?
Author:  ftlauderdale16 [ Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
Hey Guys,

Thought I'd add my two cents… As with anything on a Hobie 16, the key is to play with your settings until you find a setting that feels fast to you. Everybody will sail the boat a little different to each other and you need to tune it to the way you sail it. And with anything in sailing, theres always a trade off. More mast rake might equal better pointing upwind, but heavy mast rake kills down wind performance. No point in being first to A mark if you get killed on the way down to the gate because you can't drive as deep as the other boats. You need a good balance on all points of sail. Experiment until you find what works for your style of handling the boat.

Just remember while you're experimenting, when you rake the mast back, you must rake the rudders forward to compensate or otherwise you'll have a lot of tug on the tiller. :P
Author:  DanIsaacson [ Tue May 24, 2016 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
ftlauderdale16 wrote:
Hey Guys,

Thought I'd add my two cents… As with anything on a Hobie 16, the key is to play with your settings until you find a setting that feels fast to you. Everybody will sail the boat a little different to each other and you need to tune it to the way you sail it. And with anything in sailing, theres always a trade off. More mast rake might equal better pointing upwind, but heavy mast rake kills down wind performance. No point in being first to A mark if you get killed on the way down to the gate because you can't drive as deep as the other boats. You need a good balance on all points of sail. Experiment until you find what works for your style of handling the boat.

Just remember while you're experimenting, when you rake the mast back, you must rake the rudders forward to compensate or otherwise you'll have a lot of tug on the tiller. :P


What do you mean by rake the rudders forward? How is this done?
Author:  AntonLargiader [ Wed May 25, 2016 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
Conventional wisdom for speed is to maximize waterline and optimize the separation of the water flow from the hull, so that puts the transoms just skimming the surface. Even in heavy air, sailing solo on a relatively new boat I am pretty far forward, like at the shroud. I use all of the telescoping stick when I am on the trapeze.

If the water is swirling back on the transom, you are slow. You can sail like that if you are more comfortable, but it's slow.

Mast rake is sort of a different thing; it doesn't change the optimum hull attitude as far as I know. For long upwind and downwind legs, you can change the mast rake using the jib halyard. That's part of what the turning blocks (part of the power pack) do: help you make that adjustment. Take out the slack for downwind, add slack for upwind.
Author:  Tim H16 [ Thu May 26, 2016 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mast Rake
I have been trying Matt's recommendation (when sailing solo) of sitting more forward near the shroud and am getting more used to it. Due a knee replacement several years ago, I no longer trapeze very often and prefer sitting on the tramp or if necessary on the rail. Anchoring my heels in the tramp's centerline lacing (when sitting more forward) helps to keep me from sliding off when flying a hull.

Sitting more forward increases the angle of your tiller (in relation to the tiller crossbar) and therefore requires more pull in order to overcome the weather helm of the rudders. Several years ago I re-drilled my rudders for maximum rake (they are almost touching the drain plugs for the hulls) to minimize the weather helm from when I increased my mast rake (new shrouds, additional forestay chainplate, new mast step and base, adjustable upper rudder castings, 6x1 main blocks, etc.). To reduce the weather helm further I can't really reduce my mast rake any more since the fronts of the newer type mast base and step will hit and the mast will not rotate easily.

It is a different feel when sitting more forward now that my bows are closer to the water and the transoms are out of the water (benefit of the rudders not kicking up as often from hitting the bottom in shallow water). Hopefully the boat is going faster now since the "need for speed" is one of the main reasons why I enjoy sailing a H16.
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