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New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57518		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  abbman [ Mon May 02, 2016 6:49 am ]
Post subject:  New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
I’ve been out-pointed long enough and I think it is way overdue that I replace my 30+ year old sails, even though my wife and I love the Blue Hawaii pattern I currently have. They will still make a good recreational set. I think a set of Seabreeze sails will look great with my yellow hulls, but I’ve yet to see a pattern that I like as much as the Blue Hawaii. They can be puke green if they will make me faster.

I’ve got a few questions about the sail upgrade as I still have a mid 80’s platform that I have made some upgrades to. I know the post 94 sails were re-cut to allow more rake and I may need to replace some things to get the most out of the boat.

1. What do I need to replace other than the sails? I know I will need shorter shrouds. I also think I will need a new mast base. Is that correct?
2. I have an older style raised traveler fitted with the Kisme IT traveler cars. I know they sit higher than the cars in the new integrated track. With a new jib, do ya’ll believe I will still be able to fully sheet the jib before the clew comes in contact with the traveler? In photos I’ve seen of new boats it looks like there is still a significant gap when sailing upwind and fully sheeted in. My current jib flutters like crazy at the leach, even when block to block. I know I could replace the front crossbar, but it is money I’d rather not spend and my boat is epoxied together. I’d rather not have to un-do that.
3. If you could choose only one, would you upgrade to the Aussie Halyard or the 6:1 downhaul?

It is also time for a new tramp. I’ve had a white vinyl tramp on the boat for years and I really like the vinyl, but I’d be interested in hearing some pros and cons for vinyl vs. mesh. I’m currently doing most of my sailing on a large lake in NC, but I will also be sailing in some coastal areas that get some large swells. I like the durability of the vinyl and the ease of patching if needed. Do ya’ll feel one is faster than the other? It seems most of the top guys in the photos I see have the mesh tramp.

I know that no amount of money is going to convert a 30 year old boat into a brand new one, but given what I can afford right now I think new sails would significantly improve my performance. The boat is light as it is one of the red glue boats and it is pretty stiff after epoxying the frame and tightening the tramp with the bolt and board method. The biggest issue is that I simply can’t point as high as people with newer sails. I also notice others fly a hull before I do. It becomes really obvious during a distance race. I’ve got adjustable rudder castings and older EPO’s, but I still need to re-drill the castings and insert the nylon bushings to get some slop out.

So racers, what do you think?
Author:  BboySlug [ Mon May 02, 2016 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
Hi Abbman,

I don't know the answer to all your questions, but I can take a crack at a couple of them at least.

3. I have an Aussie halyard, but my boat is also a 2004, so it came with it. For info on the aussie halyard, I'd refer to this post: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45890. On the 6:1 downhaul, although I don't have one, both of the people who I typically race against do. Their crew can easily adjust the downhaul during a tack or jibe as they go from one side of the boat to the other. They say it's really helped their sailing to be able to make this adjustment. One of them even said "it's one of the top 5 racing purchases [she]'s made" on her boat. She also goes to hobie North America's and what not, so she's on a high level. In the end, I'd only purchase the 6:1 downhaul depending on where you see your skill level.

On the vinyl versus the mesh, I'd recommend this on how you store it. If stored inside or outside with a cover, the mesh is probably worth it. Just be sure that you do purchase a mesh with holes small enough that waves don't come through the bottom. I sailed on a SuperCat last July 4th, and it was the wettest catamaran I ever sailed on. It's mesh tramp had holes the size of a hole puncher machine's and the water just came through like crazy.

Hope this helps, or at least is a start.
Author:  Skipshot [ Tue May 03, 2016 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
How seriously are you considering racing? The cost of a new set of sails, tramp, and standing rigging gets pretty close to a ten year old boat with all the upgrades already in place. Maybe sell your current boat and put the money toward a newer one? Many racers prefer to sell their boats to others who will keep it in the fleet, so if you make your desires known you may score a nice, newer boat with less hassle than fixing up an old one.

However, if pointing is important and you don't have the money then first replace the jib since they blow out before the main does and has a bigger effect on pointing than the main. And don't buy a used jib since it, too, may be blown out or will soon be. But, you will need to replace the standing rigging, too, since new jibs are cut for new rigging and the increased mast rake compared to your old jib.

The debate over mesh vs. vinyl tramps has raged for many years, but it mostly comes down to how the boat is used and the experience you wish to have.

A mesh tramp drains water while a vinyl one tends to pool it.
A mesh tramp is cooler when exposed to the sun since air can dissipate heat through the mesh.
A mesh tramp is rougher on the skin of knees and feet.
Spray through a mesh tramp is known to wash the main sheet overboard, or other items loosely secured.
Spray through a mesh tramp when racing isn't a big deal because you're usually out of the way of the spray, but when recreationally sailing the spray can be an unwelcome and unexpected douche for inexperienced and unsuspecting guests.
On hot days the spray through the tramp can bring welcome relief.
Vinyl comes in only white, and on bright days that color can be one more glare on the eyes.
Author:  AntonLargiader [ Tue May 03, 2016 4:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
1) I think the base and the step. My notes say that the bridle wires were lengthened slightly in 2009, too.

2) I can't say that I have a noticeable benefit from the Ausie although I really don't have much in the way of comparison. But I can say that the 6:1 downhaul... my oh my. The power it gives you over sail shape is breathtaking. Sure, you *can* get a lot of downhaul the old way by having your crew stand on the boom or something, but with the 6:1 you actually do it every time you want it because it's so easy.

Good points on the newer boat, but there can be a big difference between newer and new. You won't be getting the new sails that you would have if you bought new sails; you'll have sails that have been raced for 10 years. And you may not be getting *all* of the upgrades if you don't buy new enough. But you get nearly everything if you buy within this century. If you look for 2005 and newer, making sure that the sails are in the condition you want, you'd probably be very happy. Guessing that would be a $4000+ boat. The upgrades that aren't mentioned are nice, too, like the tiller connectors.

I have the Hobie mesh tramp and don't find it to be too rough. My only complaint is that for some reason Hobie didn't see any reason to add a second halyard pocket on the left; there is only one on the right.

abbman wrote:
1. What do I need to replace other than the sails? I know I will need shorter shrouds. I also think I will need a new mast base. Is that correct?
3. If you could choose only one, would you upgrade to the Aussie Halyard or the 6:1 downhaul?
Author:  abbman [ Tue May 03, 2016 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
I really appreciate the advice. I can certainly see the advantages of trying to buy a less than 10 year old boat. I just don’t see too many of them in the area that go up for sale. It seems most folks around here either have newer boats or rather old boats. The ones that have the newer ones seem to hold on to them. There may be one available from a member of the club, but the ad is a little old. It would be a 2008 if it is still available. I think that would be ideal if the sails were in good shape. This isn’t to say I wouldn’t be willing to travel if the price was right, but then I don’t have the advantage of a good inspection.

Unfortunately, despite many attempts to grow the class around here there don’t seem to be too many race-ready boats around.
In the condition my current boat is in, I could probably get a grand for it. So, these are all things I am considering. I’m sure my attachment to the boat has something to do with it as well. I’ve been piecing that thing together for the last decade and I’ve done all the repairs myself. I suppose we have a bit of a bond, her and me. Still, it may be a bit of a gamble to just get the new suit of sails. I assume the upgrades (sails, rigging, mast base and step, 6:1) would increase the value of my old boat some, but perhaps not as much as I would expect. Shoot, the old EPO's are probably worth a third of the boats tax value right now.

Other than weight and mast rake, what makes new boats faster? I know some of the upgrades reduce slop, such as the H20 tiller connectors and integrated track. I assume it is the combined effect of all the upgrades, but I don’t know for sure.

I know that some racers have sought out, or used to seek out, the redline hulls due to their low weight. Perhaps that isn’t true anymore. I’ve never put my boat on scales, so I can’t say this for fact, but just moving around my 86 and my buddies 88 I can feel a difference. I need to put it on some scales to be sure. If it is near the weight of a new boat, which it may not be, what other factors contribute to the difference in speed?

I’ve actually been racing for a while, albeit near the back of the fleet. I’ve done well in some distance events when the wind did not require a completely close-hauled approach. The boat does pretty well downwind, but that could be due to the 30 year old blown out sails. However, any gains downwind are immediately lost once the mark is rounded. I’d estimate others can sail 5-10 degrees closer than I can upwind. I’m at a point where I don’t feel my boat matches my skills.

My favorite event, the Duck Cup in the OBX, is coming up next month and I would really like to be more competitive this year. I’d also like to do well at my local club’s Portsmouth races and the interest in cats seems to be growing around the club so before long we may be able to start some OD racing. I’ve been told that this year is the first year in a long time in which there were more cats on the line than monos!

I suppose my two options are to ride out the year with my old sails which will probably lead me to participate in fewer events, or save and sell my current boat for a newer one. Decisions, decisions.

Keep the advice and insight coming. I really appreciate it and it will help me make a more informed decision. Ya'll are awesome.
Author:  Skipshot [ Tue May 03, 2016 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
It sounds like racing is more your thing that recreational sailing, and if you feel your skills are outgrowing your boat then that could likely be true. An older boat will gather a thousand little bits of wear here and there and they all add up to a slower boat, and nostalgia and attachment don't win races. At some point you may to decide you don't like finishing near the back of the pack and something will have to give - either your wallet or your racing (I don't know your weight or skill level, which also have much to do with doing well in races).

Good luck figuring it out.
Author:  abbman [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
Very good points, Skipshot. I really do enjoy the racing. I know I am on the heavy side at around 220-230. I'm 6'4", so it is a little spread out, but still on the heavy side for crew. I was starting to recruit some of the teachers kids where I work, but my wife enjoys doing the club races with me. That may still be a possibility though. I won't share her weight, but together we are well over the 280 minimum. She is also tall at 6 ft.

I've thought about a different platform altogether, but I love the Hobie 16. I hate to even admit this here, but the MC Scow has gained some of my attention. It's made for bigger guys like me and there is a pretty active class across the state I believe. It might not fulfill my need for speed though.

I'd also be willing to look into crewing opportunities on another cat. I just love being on the water. It's even better when there are others to compare myself to.
Author:  Skipshot [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
abbman wrote:
I know I am on the heavy side at around 220-230.

That's not a competitive weight on a 16. You need a bigger boat, not new sails. For comparison, on day one of a regatta I was even with another guy with about the same weight as me. On day two he got someone about 50 lbs. heavier and he couldn't keep up with me all day.
Author:  abbman [ Tue May 03, 2016 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
Skipshot,

Thanks for the honesty. You may be saving me some heartache and money here. I've probably been in denial about being overweight for the 16 even though I know the recommended weight is around the class minimum. I just love the boat. I bought this 16 with practically zero sailing experience. But, now that I am what I'd at least like to think a decent sailor, it may be time to face the facts and get something that I can win on. Sailing has really won me over, but I'm just a bigger dude than most sailors. Even at my fittest, playing soccer in high school, I was 215.

Do you think there any cats that would fit my weight better?

The fellow that got the MC Scow at my club is maybe 10-20 lbs heavier than me. He corrected to 2nd place behind an F-16 Viper in some of our last club races. I've heard that they were designed for bigger guys. I also really like the looks of the Musto Skiff and the fact that it has a spin and trapeze. Sorry to talk mono hulls here. I promise I prefer two hulls. I'll admit that it has been really frustrating over the last few years of racing to always finish near the back of the fleet even though I feel my skill level continues to improve.
Author:  Skipshot [ Tue May 03, 2016 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
Try at least an 18. I race an 18 and weigh 215 and am mid-pack competitive when I have crew on the lighter side. An 18 does best with class minimum weight at 295, which is only slightly more than a 16, but the boat handles the extra weight better and won't pitchpole like a 16. It is only slightly more complicated to set up and sitting on the hulls is more comfortable than sidebars. If you find one with wings then it is even more comfortable for rec sailing, but take them off for racing to save 40 lbs of weight.

The 20 is a dream to sail, too, but they are scarce. Maybe someone else could advise a Tiger.
Author:  DavidBell47 [ Wed May 04, 2016 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
Hey Abbman,

I only have a comment about 2 of your questions. Tramp ??? I've had both (mesh & solid) and mesh is definitely my choice. In addition to the many pros and cons that Skipshot mentioned, I've found that the mesh tramp significantly reduces the propensity to capsize. The solid tramp acts like an additional sail once you get close to "the point of no return", where as the mesh tramp allows for less resistance against the wind.

Second question. Aussie halyard or 6.1 downhaul. I say both, but if I had to chose, I'd say the Aussie and I've had both. The reason ??? Tacking !!! There's a lot less "handing" of the mast with the Aussie allowing it (the mast) to rotate more freely during a tack (making tacking easier) whereas the standard halyard doesn't allow the mast to have that freedom.

There's a sidebar going on concerning the 6.1 downhaul but having one sure makes it sweet when going through pointing transitions and changes in the wind speed.

For any other questions you might have, I've got nothing !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  Fxloop [ Wed May 04, 2016 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
I'm 210# and with ANY adult crew I have to sail my Hobie Miracle 20. My hobie 16 is great with me solo but its hard finding an experienced 10 year old to crew to keep the weight on the boat under 300# to be competitive. The good racers combined weight is 280# or less... and thats on a less than 10 year old boat thats in near mint condition. Agreed.... you need a 18'+ cat.
Author:  abbman [ Tue May 10, 2016 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New sails and tramp/ ?'s and advice
Yeah I really like the 20, but they do seem scarce around this side of the country. There has been some growth of the H20 fleet down in Charleston, SC which isn't too far away. It seems like most of the ones in really good condition are out in California. I think you all are right that I need a bigger boat. I'll be on the lookout. Again, I appreciate everyone's input and advice.
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