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Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=65511
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Author:  SlowSL [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:19 am ]
Post subject:  Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

So, I've been trying to better read my telltales and improve sail trim, as well as practicing pointing better the last couple times that I've been out. I've noticed a couple things that have been bugging me. After setting up a new to me '84, I had a huge problem with my jib leech being way full, even pinned at the top hole of the clew plate. Due to having the newest version of the shorter side shrouds, but having the older style shorter bridle wires and raked back as far as possible puts the tack of the jib lower than it would normally be, and I had it pinned at the lowest hole of the shroud, which put my clew plate location way low, throwing my jib shape way out of whack. I corrected by pinning a few holes up on the adjuster plate and making sure the jib had equal foot/leech tension, problem solved. After fixing the jib issue, I really tried to see what my telltales were doing. Last time I went out, I was solo, wind was 13 knots gusting over 20, so I was a bit overpowered. I could only get both sails trimmed with both sets of telltales streaming nicely up to somewhere between a beam reach and a close reach. If I try to move close hauled, and keep my jib telltales streaming nice, the main windward telltale is always indicating that it's pinching by flying up. I do the normal things, travel in, downhaul/outhaul on hard, sheet in tight. Bearing away, gaining speed, then heading up, still happens. I've read mixed discussion on this. Some say don't worry about the windward main telltale, as it will always indicate you are pinching (while close hauled), while others say they should all be streaming, or the very least, the windward main will be dancing a little. I understand my sails are old and stretched, so maybe this is normal for tired sails? Maybe it was due to the wind speed that day? Should I be less concerned with the main windward telltale, and more focused on the jib telltales while on a close hauled tack? I mean, my speed seemed okay and at a good upwind angle. I'm going to be ordering some more telltales, as I only have the original ones on there. Can someone tell me exactly what the telltales, both windward and leeward on both sails should be doing while on a close hauled course?

Author:  Tom Kirkman [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

They should both be streaming straight back, okay if the windward tell occasionally flips up a little.

Assuming I'm correctly sheeted, I simply steer to the telltales on the jib.

Author:  SlowSL [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

Tom Kirkman wrote:
They should both be streaming straight back, okay if the windward tell occasionally flips up a little.

Assuming I'm correctly sheeted, I simply steer to the telltales on the jib.


That's kind of the problem. I've always steered to the jib telltales, and kind of ignored the main windward telltale. The leeward main telltale is, for the most part always streaming back, but the windward is ALWAYS pointing up to some degree. The main traveled in, no matter how hard it's sheeted, just can't get the angle on the main. I can bear away to get all four streaming, but I'm losing pointing angle.

Author:  mmiller [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

Get some tell tails on the leech of your main. That is for fine-tuning for the main.

mmiller wrote:
Tell Tails are used for a variety of wind indications:

Up high on the top of the mast or on a support stay (shrouds, forestays and bridles on catamarans), would be free to indicate apparent wind direction and undisturbed by the sails.

In the body of the sail to indicate air flow over the sail surface.

On the leech of the sail help to indicate under or over sheeting as well as sail twist.

We simply place the basic sail body ones as a starter. These are the most common used in sailing. I like the leech tails and always have a free swinging wind indicator if I'm racing. I have a couple of diagrams that might help. Designed for Catamarans, but really similar on all sails.

How to place them:
Image


How to use them:
Image

The basics are to try and get both standard tells flowing. I would rather see the windward one stall than the lee side. Sheet out or change course until they flow. Then sheet in a bit.

The upper 3rd of the sail is a good location for "leech" tell tails. If you sheet too hard the tell tail will wrap to the lee side. Not sheeting hard enough and the tell tail flows straight aft. The right sheet tension typically causes the tell tails to flow aft then wrap to lee and repeat... alternating. Very difficult to get it all flowing correctly on a Kayak sail due to the limited tension and sheeting controls and no traveler. Catamarans have battens, downhaul, outhaul, and travelers on the sheeting systems... all work together to trim properly for different points of sail (directions you are sailing compared to the wind).

Author:  SlowSL [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

mmiller wrote:
Get some tell tails on the leech of your main. That is for fine-tuning for the main.



Matt, I intend to do exactly this to get a better sight on what's going on with the rest of the sail, however I was still curious if it's normal for the main OEM windward telltale to be flying up in a blow on a close hauled tack.

Author:  rattle 'n hum [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

This is a very good question....my 2 cent answer....

The main traveler effects the lower main telltale moreso than the mainsheet. Sailing close hauled, once I'm travelled in, I ignore the lower main telltale, and sheet to the upper telltales. On a broad reach, the traveler goes pretty much all the way out. In between, I do try to use the lower telltale for main traveler adjustment.

It's very difficult to keep them all flying perfectly on both sails for a length of time....and you're almost guaranteed to be screwing up something else (like where you're steering to) if you're looking up at telltales too much!

Edit: Meant to type broad reach rather than beam in 2nd paragraph, second sentence.

Author:  mmiller [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

Yes, pretty normal...

Image

Author:  SlowSL [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close hauled Sail trim & telltale questions.

Thanks guys, that was the info I was looking for!

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