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Tendancy to Pitchpole...
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1016		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Steve R^2 [ Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Tendancy to Pitchpole...
The leeward hull on my Turbo seems to think its a submarine and tries to dive. (Pitch Pole?) Has happened a couple times but has always come out again. Until this weekend when I took a swim, so I guess its time to ask; Am I doing something wrong?

I was on a beam reach, and I think the jib was oversheeted. In general seems to be worse when using the jib (which makes sense). I have the mast raked which in theory should help prevent it. Winds were roughly 20knots, 2-4ft chop. I'm 180lbs and was sitting just aft of the stays. Should I be sitting further aft? Is this a rigging problem or is the 14T prone to this? (Note, I'm pretty sure mine a 14 that has been converted if that makes a difference)

Thanks,
Steve.
Author:  xanderwess [ Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Pitch pole machine
My turbo is the same way. Loves to dive on a beam reach and has cartwheeled more than once. I have 10 lbs on you and have been on a trap line standing on the rear pylon, and barely kept her from going down under.
the only thing I have learned is to sheet the jib IN farther when in heavy wind heading down, if I luff her too much, too much power and I bury the hulls.
When your out on the trap going on a fast downwind reach, it feels like I am on a 14' skateboard.
Author:  Steve R^2 [ Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
So is this then a typical 14T problem or is our boats just special?

To prevent this, should I just under sheet the jib on a beam reach?

I have not tried the trap yet, so have no idea how easy it is to get out. Should I be concerned about doing a cartwheel while in the trap?
Author:  samcc99us [ Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Their is a reason for the trap on the 14T and a reason for it on the 14 standard-to keep that leeward bow from buring in the wind by getting your weight as far aft as possible! Rack your mast back as far as possible-you have a jib to help you tack, so this isn't as much of an issue as on my 14 standard. In heavy air, you want to be trapped out and oversheeted on the jib to get rid of excess power (the jib tends to bury the bows). Also, sheet OUT on the main some (traveled all the way out and sheeted down tight and let out in the puffs or when its hard to keep down), and bear down in the puffs (this is a cat, not a monohull, so you want to bear down to prevent pitch poling, not up like in the FJ's I race). And this is a common problem for both the 14 standard,turbo and 16. I have pitched her over upwind with 250 pounds (me and a friend) in like 25-30, thats a 14 standard by the way. Thats the reason I added a trapeze to the boat this year, allowing me to keep her down more easily and rake the mast further forward to tack more easily-not a problem as much with the 14T though! Now, righting by ones self is another problem entirely!

Sam
Author:  marcusc130 [ Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:10 am ]
Post subject: 
I would say that you are definitly too far forward if you are sitting near the stays. I generally sit as close to the rear crossbar as possible when on a reach, and I'm usually out on the wire. Sometimes I end up standing on the corner casting with my aft foot on the hull. But I still pitchpole it sometimes. I've never had any problems when I pitchpole it while I'm on the wire (knock on wood). It will catapult you around the forestay though. Fun times!!!


Marcus
H14
Narragansett Bay
Author:  Steve R^2 [ Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:16 am ]
Post subject: 
So having read the above, is it even possible to fly a hull on at 14T without leeward hull taking a dive?

I have seen in catalogs anti-pitch pole hydrofolios? Is it worth it? Would this help or under these conditions I would bury it regardless?
Author:  marcusc130 [ Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah, I constantly fly a hull. You just have to keep an eye on that leward bow, and if it starts to bury, head up a little. That usually works for me.
Author:  turbofan [ Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I fly mine all the time-you've gotta watch the lee hull, though! I'm about 165lbs,and usually if I'm trapped out, I need to keep my weight pretty much at or even behind the aft crossbar. If youre hiked out near the stays, it'll pitchpole every time.- Dave
Author:  Steve R^2 [ Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  First time trapping
Ok, thanks for the info. Looks like I need to break out the trap seat.

Any advice for first time trapping? (painful lessons learnt that you can share?)
Author:  widerisbetter [ Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Couple helpful hints
1) make sure that your weight is full on the trap from hook to dogbone- do not lift yourself off the boat by grabbing the trap-handle because this will cause you to unhook yourself resulting in a quick dive overboard
2) if you have never done this before- keep the hook-up at or above the rail level. This will help to make sure that you keep your butt hanging and lifted slightly. As you learn the nuances you can lower the bone so that you can hang out and back further.
3) ease yourself out with one hand on the trap handle NOT LIFTING for stability. Hold sheet and tiller extender in other hand.
4) keep forward leg straight and rear leg bent.
5) getting as far aft as possible: forward leg on the tramp-frame at the corner casting and rear leg right out on the hull. If there are two of you, the "rider" can handle the sheets and should be sitting on the casting between your legs- they can offer you some support.

Hint: buy the foot strap/carrying handle kit #1241 from Hobie and install on your gunwales per the directions included. This nifty little thing provides a place to jam your rear foot under for stability.

Have fun and remember to yell "A-OOO-GA, A-OOO-GA, dive, dive!!" when all this fails.... :lol:
Author:  Steve R^2 [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Tried it out 2 weekends ago and what a blast.... somethings I need to get used to but had a pretty sweet time.

Unfortuneatly last minute work trip land me in India and has cut my sailing season short :cry:

You mentioned not to pull to much on the trap handle because I'll unhook. I have the exact opposite problem, I need to pull pretty hard to unhook the dog bone. I think this is because my setup is slightly different that the H16 manual. Instead of cord just passing through the end of trap wire and terminate at the bone, the trap end has a cleat and a pulley. (Rope from under tramp -> through pulley at trap end -> through pulley at bone -> back to trap wire end where it is cleated)

Nice part is this enables me to lower/raise the bone easily and on the fly instead of playing around with the stopper on rope while flying along.

Bad part is that grade 10 physics says that what I'm feeling at the bone is actually 2x the force of the bungee.

Should I rerun it to match the 16 setup and give up the flexibility of adjusting the height (even though I didn't adjust it even once when out there) or keep it and just deal with the scrambling I'm doing to get unhooked in a tack?
Author:  stuholroyd [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
For ppl without the luxury of a trapeze... (this was me until I forced my dad to buy me the TJ kit :D )

... I find that if you sit in the corner as aft as possible diving doesn't happen to much unless you get caught off guard, even then i've dived about 3 foot under the surface and still got away with it, SHEET OUT!!! 8)
Author:  brianh64 [ Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I had the same thing happen to me while out on my currently jibless turbo. I was attempting to outrun an incoming thunderstorm and hauling serious butt on a broad reach in winds that I would guess were close to 30 knots at times. Several times the leeward hull tried to bury but I unsheeted to get her back up then resheeted and took off again. This went on for awhile until I got hit by a good puff and didn't unsheet quick enough and did a nice cartwheel and went for a swim. The downside was that by the time I extracted the mast from the 2 1/2 feet of mud it sank in and got the boat swung around the wind let off. :( The whole time I had my rump parked at the rear corner casting and I weigh 190.
Author:  widerisbetter [ Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Steve - parts for trapping and suggested arrangement
Steve- I don’t like the "traditional" H16 setup (as it is shown in the manual). I would never go back to it. But it sounds like you have some of the necessary ingredients to cook up what Hobie sells as the “Deluxe Adjustable Trapeze Rig” (catalog #1203). http://static.hobiecat.com/2010_archive/support/pdfs/12_15.pdf

I would bury the dogbones or use them for a nice key-ring. They present a too small target for hook up, especially under pressure. Worse yet, they get swinging around and hurt like the dickens when they bean you. If you don’t do anything else, replace with J&H handles (part 2004). The primary advantage of the handles is the big hook-up target – you can connect by feel while your attention is on other things - sailing the boat for example. They also give you a handle that is lower on the wire allowing you to leverage your weight when you just want to lean out for a moment- handy in puffs.

The best assembly uses the Deluxe rig and J& H handle. This gives you flexibility in adjustment and no swinging parts. Here's the order of assembly- (refer to the catalog photo to get a clear idea the parts I refer to here)
1) Attach Fiddle/Jam block to thimble at end of trap wire with clevis pin at top of block.
2) Attach J & H handle to smaller block hanging below fiddle/jam block.
3) Attach 5/16's shockcord to the Bottom of the handle using shockcord snap hook- Run under tramp to other side. The length of this bungee should be just snug but not stretched when handle pairs are in the lowest position. The lowest position is when the stopper balls on the adjuster are up against the jam block.

With this arrangement you don’t have anything swinging around because the J&H handle is held secure to the rail by the bungee and the little stopper-ball on the adjuster is snug up to the jam block. Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Anyway, this is the best system you can use in my opinion. It SHOULD come with every Hobie. If it did though, we wouldn't spend our money on little parts to benefit “The Hobie Lifestyle”- ie the lifestyle of the Alter Empire :roll: :

Peace out, and GO FOR IT!!
PS to see a entire description of using this system check out the H16 thread on trapping out. :wink:
Author:  Steve R^2 [ Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Clarification on #3. The shock cord should be attached to the bottom of the handle? Doesn't that mean the handle is being pulled in 2 directions (up by the trap wire, down by the shock cord) Potentially ending up being quick released?

Would it better to not have the one end of the rope holding the smaller block (that the handle is attached too) attached to the shock cord passing through the fiddle jam block. Would result in handle being pulled up to the fiddle Jam block keeping it from being loose?
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