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 Post subject: Mast rake
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:52 pm 
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I was attempting to set my mast rake according to Bob Curry's Hobie 14 tuning guide. With the shroud lines set in the bottom holes of the chain plate, I had acceptable rig tension but my mast rake was only 44.5 inches. If I set the rake to the 55 inches that I was shooting for (I weigh 175 pounds) there wouldn't be enough tension to keep the mast from jumping the step. My forestay was in the sixth hole from the bottom. Am I doing this right?

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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:32 pm 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Racers run the rig super loose so it will stand more upright downwind, to the point that the mast would easily jump out of the step in a capsize. To keep the mast in the step, after hoisting the mainsail, wrap the main halyard around the dolphin striker post and back up to the halyard cleat several times and then tie off. The halyard will act as a keeper to hold the mast in the step.

Also, did you level the boat before taking the measurements?

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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:28 pm 
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I did level the boat. I don't mind wrapping the main halyard as a safeguard but since I'm not racing, I prefer to run the rig with enough tension to keep the mast from falling out in a capsize. I like to run the shrouds tight enough that I can only get about a 45 when I try to twist them. I wish I could find someone in my area who knows what they are doing to help out. There's a local club but they don't seem to be very responsive to the forum on their website. Looks like I need to head out to their next regatta and see if someone wouldn't mind helping me out.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:32 am 
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Keep in mind that Curry’s tuing guide is geared towards racers and assumes you will be running the rig loose. I would just stand the rig a little more upright if you want to keep it snug. It will be a better all around performance setting anyway for all points of sail (extreme rake setting assumes you will use a bridle tensioner line to stand the rig up downwind). Otherwise, I would say you’re lokking at shortening the shrouds to achieve what you’re trying to do. You could potentially ditch the adjusters and shackle the shroud directly to the anchor plate to gain maybe an inch or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:54 am 
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I've never raised the mast yet, (total newbie to sailing) and this might seem like a laughable question (go ahead, have a chuckle) but reading a lot of different posts and watching some (a lot) of JB video it seems that a "just snug enough" tension on shrouds and main halyard are all that really keeps the mast ball in it's base socket.

Is this right? At least for a new sailor, not racing tune.

Is the teflon washer used between these two pieces on a '89 Hobie 14 main mast?

Trying my darndest to speed educate myself on all aspects of its assembly and setting up to minimize problems as I push off for the first time later this week. As we all know, it's what we don't know that comes back to bite us...

Thanks for all your advice


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:20 am 
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srm wrote:
Keep in mind that Curry’s tuing guide is geared towards racers and assumes you will be running the rig loose. I would just stand the rig a little more upright if you want to keep it snug. It will be a better all around performance setting anyway for all points of sail (extreme rake setting assumes you will use a bridle tensioner line to stand the rig up downwind). Otherwise, I would say you’re lokking at shortening the shrouds to achieve what you’re trying to do. You could potentially ditch the adjusters and shackle the shroud directly to the anchor plate to gain maybe an inch or so.

sm

Since I was able to get good tension with the shrouds in the bottom hole, should I run it that way with the 44.5" of rake, or should I set it back up to "Hobie standard" and move the shrouds back to the second hole from the bottom and the forestay to the fourth hole, and only run about 39" of rake? I think it was JB (Joyrider) that said the 2nd or 3rd hole on the shrouds was the "normal" setting for the H14.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:05 am 
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I had the same issue when i set my 14 up using currys guide. I set my mast to the right rake per his numbers then i figured out how much shorter i would need my shrouds to hit the middle of the chain plate and had salty dog make me a set. Now i can loosen or tighten the shrouds and adjust rake if i want and keep the recommended tensions for lite air or heavy air and trapezing.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:26 pm 
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hobiemark wrote:
I had the same issue when i set my 14 up using currys guide. I set my mast to the right rake per his numbers then i figured out how much shorter i would need my shrouds to hit the middle of the chain plate and had salty dog make me a set. Now i can loosen or tighten the shrouds and adjust rake if i want and keep the recommended tensions for lite air or heavy air and trapezing.

How much mast rake did you tune for? Can you post a picture of your boat from the side so I can see how far back the mast leans? The Curry guide says heavier sailors should favor more rake. I'm 175 pounds so I was hoping for 55" +/-.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:23 pm 
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Boat is at the lake, i run about 58 in of rake, thinking of maybe going back a little more. Yeah the mast is loose, but it helps downwind. I suggest you get your rake where you like the performance on the boat for where you sail, then if you want get a set of shorter shrouds.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
Keep in mind when looking at guides for setting up the boat for racing, that might not be the "fastest boat speed" way to setup the boat for an afternoon sail.

During racing much of the time is spent just trying to go upwind as "fast" as possible which doesn't always mean the most boat speed, but instead the highest angle giving up the least boat speed. With boats like the H14 and H16 the idea is be as close to minimum crew weight as possible, and this allows them to bring the mainsail back as far as possible over the rudders to help use the rudders to prevent leeway (the boat moving sideways in the water) as much as possible. It doesn't come without some tradeoffs.

Raking the mast further forward you might lose some height going upwind, but theoretically gain boat speed, because the weather helm generated by loading up the rudders doesn't translate into all out boat speed.. You don't want to rake so far forward as to cause the boat to want to turn downwind on it own, but having it all the way raked back itsn't needed to have a little weather helm.

Also when racing you will see guys all over the boat, moving from front to back to keep the bows down and the boat moving fast. They are using their weight to help balance the rig and the feel on the helm. Moving your weight forward in lighter air keeps the waterline of the boat as long as possible and also, you got it, effectively rakes the mast forward. As the wind picks up the skipper moves further and further back on the boat to keep angle of the boat basically about the same because the forces are going to want to drive the bows down. All of this is playing with in large part the effective mast rake.


The short version... Leave it a little further forward, run the rig a little tighter, and you will have more fun. Don't get terribly caught in the minutia until you have time on the water. Then play with things a little at a time until you get a feel for what is happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:35 pm 
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Ronholm, thanks for the detailed reply. I think what I should do then is be satisfied that I can run tight rigging with 44.5 inches of rake and just enjoy the boat as is. If I had any adjustment in the shrouds I might go for more rake but to maintain my current rig tension, 44.5 is all the rake I can get.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:04 am 
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Location: Clinton, Mississippi
A lot of factors go into the optimum mast rake for given conditions. That's why the hot shots (they're not all small people) rig their boats with all that on the water adjustability. At 175 lbs. you're gonna need to lean toward the power (lower gear) side of the spectrum to get a stock H14 going good. Less rake (mast further forward) should be a good thing unless it's blowing stink. The downside is that you will sacrifice some pointing ability and the pressure will be shifted more toward the bows (adjust weight placement to avoid pitchpole when sailing off the wind).

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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:17 am 
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ctrout wrote:
Ronholm, thanks for the detailed reply. I think what I should do then is be satisfied that I can run tight rigging with 44.5 inches of rake and just enjoy the boat as is. If I had any adjustment in the shrouds I might go for more rake but to maintain my current rig tension, 44.5 is all the rake I can get.



It was mentioned above in passing, but most of the racers have a line run from the bridle back to the tramp somewhere which they can use to pull tension on the rig downwind to help stand the mast up. If you really want to play with more rake and not have a totally loose rig you could try that. I think you are going to find though for playing around in all but really heavy air conditions you are going to like the mast a little further forward.

Also think about it like a windsurfer. Until they have a decent amount of speed in order to turn the board downwind they "rake" the mast forward, and to head further upwind they "rake" the mast aft. The H14 can be thought of much the same way if you are just out learning how to sail. Learning the proper techniques and skills to tack the boat quickly is going to be far more valuable than having the exact specs set up for racing.

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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:05 pm 
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Thanks for all of the great replies. I'm really learning a lot here. When I got the boat, I ran it with 39 inches of rake and it felt fine to me but I kept seeing this idea that more rake, up to 57 inches, is better for mor my crew weight. Now I understand that this may be true for racing. I'm not racing so should I just go back to the 39" with the shrouds in the 2nd hole from the bottom and good tension, or should I still go for more rake and set it up for the max I can get (44.5 inches) without getting new, shorter shrouds or modifying the boat in some other way? I think I would be happy to know that I have a good general tune that will work best under most conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rake
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:45 am 
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Location: Clinton, Mississippi
Please double check this....it sounds backwards:
ctrout wrote:
I kept seeing this idea that more rake, up to 57 inches, is better for mor my crew weight.


In general, mast is raked further forward (more power) for heavier crew and further back for lighter. In general, more rake (further back) is better upwind, and less (further forward) is better for downwind. Often in discussions on mast rake two ideas get confused.....1) a given shroud setting limits how far forward the mast can go (which is generally referred to as the rake setting), and 2) for any given shroud setting, you can adjust the rig tension with the forestay setting (which adjusts how far the mast can lean in whichever direction it's pushed by the forces that are acting on it).

Not sure if this has already been addressed, but, it's very important....when you set the boat up with the 44.5" rake, can you still sheet the main in hard (really hard) without going block to block on the mainsheet blocks? If not, then you need to pin higher on the shrouds (and lower on the forestay). The mast needs to be far enough forward that you can flatten the sail when needed.

Given that you aren't racing and don't want the mast popping out of the cup during a capsize, here's my suggestion: Start by finding the combination of lowest shroud pin setting AND your comfortable rig tension (mast-can't-pop-out-of-step-during-capsize forestay setting) that doesn't quite allow the main to go block to block when sheeted hard. Write these settings down and call it max rake (mast as far back as practical).....this is where your gonna want to be during the small craft advisory. Then go up one hole on the shrouds, down on the forestay as necessary for rig tension comfort (won't necessarily be hole-for-hole), and write those settings down. Repeat until you run out of holes somewhere.....this is your min rake (mast as far forward as practical)....where you're gonna want to be during the drifter. Your average happy sailing day setting will be somewhere between these two extremes....I'm guessing toward the min rake end of the spectrum at your weight.

More info just as a reference point.....
I'm no H14 expert, but I do have a lot of H16 experience, and I do have a H14 Turbo that I take out on high wind days.....just for fun when it's too windy to solo the H16. I weigh about 185 lbs., and I keep the H14T mast as far forward as it will go. With my weight, experience level, etc., and given that the boat is easily righted solo, I'm not really concerned about being overpowered on the H14T in anything under about 20 mph (concerned about breaking things?...oh yeah!). In really big air I'll furl the jib, but I never bother raking the mast back. I just have to keep my weight waaaaaay toward the back of the boat and always be ready for pitchpole avoidance actions when sailing off the wind.

Hope this helps some!

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