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Help on course...
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Author:  Sail Revolution [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Help on course...
OK Here's the scenerio:

Gate set behind committee boat, two big yellow tets set in about 130' of water. We were on the skiff. H20 rounds port gate and holes it, causing it to sink very fast.

Our first thought was to save the mark at all costs because it plus the rode etc cost about $500. We readied our anchor to try to snag the sinking mark, which was in about 20 feet of water at that point. We were simultaneously pointing the rest of the fleet down to the stbd gate, while standing up in the boat with my hands in the air yelling "Obstruction". Because there was a bunch of line in the water and I didn't want to foul the prop, we were not under power. Most of the 20's got it. Then the 16's came down and ALL of them got it.

The boats went back up to the top mark and came back down. We were still 'fishing'. We were generally on the site where the lost mark was, so I hoisted the M flag and blew a repeating blast with the horn signaling that we were replacing the missing mark. Everyone rounded the tet anyway not the skiff (I hate getting rounded by you guys :).

We never got the mark. $500 sent to Davey Jones.

As a mark boat, I am an 'obstruction on course' at all times, correct?

Can I (The RC) get protested for not having the right flags up in a scenerio like this?

What could I have done better?

Sometimes things happen so fast, there's no time to come up with a plan...we try our best.
Author:  Rick Buchanan [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Did you have a fishing license? Was the mark in season? ...It sounds like you did the correct things. Tried to save a sinker..couldn't, and when it was donated to Mr Jones you immediately raised the "M" and started honking a horn. Usually the SIs for an event will have it written in that the mark boats are an obstruction....(you're still going to get yelled at by someone who doesn't read them). Yes you can be protested for not using the correct flag or sound signals, but it sounds like you did (???) "What could I have done better?" Not much, other than to send the skipper of the 20 who started all this a bill for a new mark, line and a hook! I'll bet your SIs had some verbiage stating each boat is required to have third party insurance.
Author:  MBounds [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Putting up the M flag and repeating horns is the correct thing to do (you should have done this on the first rounding, but you were busy trying to save the mark).

A semantic correction - a competitor cannot "protest" the RC. They can "request redress" which is procedurally similar, but has some specific conditions.

RRS 62:
Quote:
62 REDRESS
62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider
redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a
race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly
worse by:

(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest
committee or organizing authority;

(b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that
was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not racing that was
required to keep clear;

(c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with
rule 1.1; or

(d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or
disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

62.2 The request shall be made in writing within the time limit of rule
61.3 or within two hours of the relevant incident, whichever is later.
The protest committee shall extend the time if there is good reason to
do so. No red flag is required.


I bolded the important phrases applicable in your case.

The first question a Protest Committee will ask will be, "Was the boat's score made significantly worse through no fault of her own?".

In your case, the fault is certainly not the competitors', however, was any competitor's score made significantly worse? From your description, it sounds like everybody figured it out and there was no significant changes in position.

If the Protest Committee determines that there is a legitimate cause for redress, the next question will be "What will be the fairest arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress?" (Rule 64.2). In this case, it would be difficult to determine a fair result for everybody, so they may decide to abandon the race (throw it out).

So the short answer is - you did all you could. If someone requested redress, then I give it a 50/50 chance with the protest committee.

Oh, and I agree with Rick - send the H-20 driver a bill for the mark and the ground tackle.
Author:  Sail Revolution [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks guys! The sailor imediately offered to replace the mark. It's a youth sailor, so I kind of feel bad, but whatever.

Part of the story I purposely left out:

A 20 sailor tried to round the stbd gate to stbd, not knowing what gate mark it was. Remember the port gate sank. How would that change things?
Author:  Dan DeLave [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Part of the story I purposely left out:

A 20 sailor tried to round the stbd gate to stbd, not knowing what gate mark it was. Remember the port gate sank. How would that change things?


I was reading this and did not know why you mentioned it. Because you did I think that there is some confusion. Most marks that are not gates are usually rounded to port. You mentioned a port gate mark missing therefore the starboard mark should be rounded to starboard. Maybe you were saying that the boat was trying to round both marks to port?

Regarding gates...we, ABYC, put in the SIs that if there is a mark missing where a gate is supposed to be then the mark remaining is to be rounded to port as if there were no gate on the course. This would have made your problem moot.

If you are flying an M flag on the boat and it the approximate area of the mark, without the SIs saying anything, I would presume that you are the object that is replacing the mark and round you as the port mark if I needed to. This would appear to be some semblance of a gate. If there was an obvious problem at the port side, as there was, I would have opted to round the starboard gate though.

If everyone rounds the mark the same way, the race is still on.

Dan
Author:  Rick Buchanan [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Maybe I reading this wrong...but if a boat (the 20) rounds the starboard mark to starboard are they keeping the mark on their port side the same as if a "C" mark was used (and not a gate)?
Author:  MBounds [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Rick Buchanan wrote:
Maybe I reading this wrong...but if a boat (the 20) rounds the starboard mark to starboard are they keeping the mark on their port side the same as if a "C" mark was used (and not a gate)?


Nope. Remember that the "port" and "starboard" reference frame for the course (and all marks) is looking upwind, not downwind.
Author:  Rick Buchanan [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:40 am ]
Post subject: 
With that being the case it's correct to say (in answer to Jeremy's question on the 20) the 20 rounded incorrectly. (Sailed an improper course) Right?
Author:  MBounds [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Technically, yes he did.

However, if for some reason he was scored DNF or someone protested him for sailing an incorrect course, he could have requested redress - which, in all liklihood would be granted and the "fairest" result would be that he be scored in his original finishing position in that race.
Author:  Sail Revolution [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dan DeLave wrote:

Regarding gates...we, ABYC, put in the SIs that if there is a mark missing where a gate is supposed to be then the mark remaining is to be rounded to port as if there were no gate on the course. This would have made your problem moot....

If everyone rounds the mark the same way, the race is still on.

Dan


I may have said it wrong...

The 'round to port' rule even though not explicitly in the SI's is a given pretty much right? I'll tell you what, it is now!

Image

You guys are FN good at the rules by the way!

I guess the biggest issue is that there was almost a collision.

Thanks, J
Author:  Sail Revolution [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Another thing too...

If one couldn't see the other gate and mistakenly rounded the existing mark the wrong way (thinking he was rounding it correctly) Would he be DSQ'd?

Remember, I didn't have the M flag a flying yet.

J

And Rick, I didn't have a fishing license and the Harbor Patrol came out and harassed me. Fortunately, I mentioned that I knew you and they let me off with a written warning . :lol:
Author:  MBounds [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
If one couldn't see the other gate and mistakenly rounded the existing mark the wrong way (thinking he was rounding it correctly) Would he be DSQ'd?

Remember, I didn't have the M flag a flying yet.


See my reply above. If he was DSQ'd, he could immediately request redress (time limit for protests doesn't apply, see Rule 61.3).
Author:  hobie18rich [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
The important thing here is bieng over-looked Jeremy brought a commity boat, chase/mark boat, and worked the regatta and someone had the bearings to argue with the way he proceded to run the racing.
Jeremy thanks for all you do for division 3. Without all your support the regattas would be alot harder to do. You were in the right and im sure those 20 sailors will figure it out later, or just dsq them at moss landing , failing pre launch safety inspection would be fun for them.

Thank You to Jeremy and every race committy volunteer and worker.
Author:  gofastshawn [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
couldn't have said it better myself Rich,
I think you did everything humanly possible Jeremy short of growing a third arm to hold up the flag.
shawn
82 h18 #8211
div3
Author:  Dan DeLave [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
MBounds says:

Nope. Remember that the "port" and "starboard" reference frame for the course (and all marks) is looking upwind, not downwind.


Every reference, I could find, to a starboard and a port mark at a gate refers to them in relation to the last mark. I could not find where a gate is referred to based on looking upwind. While we are sailing we are always referring to them based on the direction we are going from the last mark right? I have read many places that the port mark is to be left to port and the starboard mark is to be left to starboard. For relationship a single weather mark is to be left to port, in fleet racing, unless otherwise specified.

That is why I wanted some clarification. I thought that Jeremy was messing with the other mark. I do not see how any confusion could have happened in the situation mentioned. If that mark were not there then you would pretend it was a single leeward mark and round it to port. If it were the other mark then there may be some confusion because the mark has changed status (from a starboard mark), if you will. In my mind the starboard mark is the one that sunk based on the drawing...sorry for the misunderstanding.

Later,
Dan
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