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Balancing Act
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=12593		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Aledal [ Sun May 24, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Balancing Act
In rough wind/tide conditions I always find myself extending one leg out over the side with upper torso leaning into and counter balancing against high waves approaching parallel to the boat-keeping a low center of gravity-while grabbing the handle on the opposite side. But thats the problem. Those molded handles may be great for one person to lift the boat but you cant wrap your hand AROUND for a secure grip. Their position does not compliment the Mirage drive either. When peddling/pumping hard you get pushed BACK. You need to pull FORWARD AND DOWN to counter and get the most power from the turbo fins. I`ve considered several options but thought I`d throw this out to you guys(and gals) first.

Hey..."We`re All In The Same Boat"
Author:  Pirate [ Sun May 24, 2009 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
I've not had the need Aledal and I wonder if you could place too much pressure on the Mirage Drive if you were to use the upper torso muscles as well as the legs (similar to riding a bicycle). You of course could bolt a couple of aluminium door handles to the top sides but they would be a nuisance when carrying the boat inverted and when slipping in and out of it. Maybe better to attach to the sides of the storage compartments inside the netting thus keeping them out of the way whilst still giving you a handle when you need it...Pirate
Author:  Aledal [ Sun May 24, 2009 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
You havent "Had the need"? Seriously Pirate...
Author:  JollyGreen [ Sun May 24, 2009 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
I'm a little unclear about the problem/question here. Are you trying to peddle like a maniac while sailing?
Author:  Aledal [ Sun May 24, 2009 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
No
Author:  Aledal [ Sun May 24, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Nevermind-thanks anyway.
Author:  chrisj [ Sun May 24, 2009 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
If it got so rough that I had to hold on to avoid getting swept out of the boat, I reckon I might call it a day. Also, I think you can use the Mirage drive effectively without leaning forward. Isn't that why the pedals are reciprocating (like a step machine) and not rotating (like a bicycle)?
Author:  BlueMark [ Sun May 24, 2009 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Finally, something I'm not ignorant about! I was an avid bicyclist for several decades.

When you are pedaling, you are in the equivalent position as on a recumbent bicycle. Unlike an upright (diamond frame) bike, when you pedal hard on a recumbent you do not lean forward or "pump" your arms - this will only reduce your power - the correct thing to do is lean back.

When on an upright bike, standing on the pedals, leaning forward, and "pumping" your arms adds body weight and compression to the pedals - giving more power.

When pedaling in a recumbent position your body weight has no effect - your weight isn't pushing the pedals and you aren't lifting your body half the time. You are maximizing your leg power potential. The most important thing to keep in mind is that you MUST have a very firm backrest for your legs to push against. Adjust your seat so that you are getting very firm support, Add straps if you must. When really whaling on the pedals, push back hard into the seat back, don't use your arms to pull yourself forward - that is just trading energy with your legs - you are better off using your arms to paddle.

Recumbent pedaling is the most efficient way to cycle (or Kayak!) because of the great efficiency at utilizing the full potential of your powerful leg muscles - recumbent bicycles hold almost all of the the bicycle speed records (at least those where it is permissible to use a recumbent bike - they aren't allowed in most bicycle races).
Author:  Slaughter [ Sun May 24, 2009 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Yeh but arn't you best trading, or better still sharing, the load on your legs by getting your arms to take some of the load by having a couple of handles. By holding onto handles while pedeling arm muscles would take some load by holding the body still while the legs are moving. Rather than the current pedeling motion where the whole body is trying to move back and is only stopped from doing so by the seat and it's straps.

That's my 2 bobs worth.
Author:  BlueMark [ Sun May 24, 2009 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Slaughter wrote:
Yeh but arn't you best trading, or better still sharing, the load on your legs by getting your arms to take some of the load by having a couple of handles.

Not really. You are using brute muscle to substitute for a firm immovable backrest for your legs to push against - as much as you would be applying force forward towards the pedals, you are also expending energy reducing the back force pushing on the seat - trying to force your torso to act as a solid object held firm by your muscles at considerable effort. I'm not saying it doesn't work at all, but it's very inefficient.

Imagine that your arms are ropes that extend from a sling around your back to a sturdy fixed point - like those handles. That is what you are achieving by "pulling" with your arms. Only the rope doesn't have to expend its own energy.

Maybe you feel like you have to reduce the back force on the seat. If you feel like you need to pull forward when pedaling hard, could it be because you don't feel like you are firmly enough planted in the seat? Is the back too floppy? Are you sliding or moving? The standard AI seat can be strapped in quite firmly, but it isn't very tall - many recumbent bicycle seats support the entire back (rolling barcoloungers!).

I'd suggest experimenting with adjusting the AI seat for a firmer support. If that doesn't do it, replacing it with a sturdier higher back model might be called for.
Author:  Roadrunner [ Sun May 24, 2009 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Aledal wrote:
You need to pull FORWARD AND DOWN to counter and get the most power from the turbo fins.

Using a lift handle fitted to a custom padeye:
Image

Image

Or, a custom fitted grip:
Image

There's nothing like a good grip! 8)
Author:  JollyGreen [ Mon May 25, 2009 4:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
hehe, I guess it's cuz I'm 6'6" and don't fit the boat correctly that I've never had the need for extra grips. I doubt I could get the power out of the boat that you guys are getting because I can't fully extend my knees. That thing must fly, what mph are you guys getting with turbos and grips?
Author:  Pirate [ Mon May 25, 2009 4:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Aledal wrote:
You havent "Had the need"? Seriously Pirate...

Good on you Aledal. You have got us going.
Firstly, seriously I believe these little vessels are just so stable that I cannot imagine having to hang on out there in any sea other that one that is going to rip the rig apart and invert it. Then I don't want to be there.
Secondly, I went paddling and peddling with Mickey today in our local river. We had a sprint race and I tried various grip positions. I agree that grip doesn't achieve more power to the pedals. What does help lighten is to assist the upper legs by using the arms by gripping the knees and help by pushing on each stroke...Pirate
Author:  Aledal [ Mon May 25, 2009 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Sorry guys -but pushing back against the seat just doesnt do it, and pulling forward and down definately helps your legs push harder against the peddles. You`re simply countering the backward force created by pushing forward and supplimenting the power of your legs. The seat back helps but the straps loosen eventually and arent meant to take a lot of stress.I thought of replacing the straps with a fixed length chain. At least a few of you agreed and someone actually added handles! YAY! Also-with the sail semi furled the A.I. handles reasonably well in rough weather-but obviously larger waves coming from the port or starboard sides tilt the boat quite a bit. Thats were the danger is. As one guy said "theres nothing like a good grip".I`ve driven transit busses 22 years and have a perfect accident record so SAFETY is my mantra.
:)
Options I`ve considered-#1-handles in the netted compartment(we agree on something Mr. PirateLOL) -or perhaps 1/2inch pipe parallel to the side in the netted area.#2 Mounting the rubber strapped handles(same as on the Amas) to the top of the netted area.
#3-Opening up the molded holes-but they are not solid and would have to be sealed.
#4-Running a chain or bar from front to back cross braces along both sides.

I`ll post some shots when I decide what to do. Thanks for the input guys!
Author:  BlueMark [ Mon May 25, 2009 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Balancing Act
Aledal wrote:
Sorry guys -but pushing back against the seat just doesnt do it, and pulling forward and down definately helps your legs push against the peddles ... As one guy said "theres nothing like a good grip".


100 years of recumbent bicycle design evolution says otherwise, but that has nothing to do with the need for a good grip in rough water. Safety and confidence are more important than ergonomic efficiency.

JollyGreen wrote:
hehe, I guess it's cuz I'm 6'6" and don't fit the boat correctly that I've never had the need for extra grips. I doubt I could get the power out of the boat that you guys are getting because I can't fully extend my knees. That thing must fly, what mph are you guys getting with turbos and grips?


Yeah, we basically have only two leg lengths we can adjust the seat for. Fortunately is isn't as essential to have the correct leg extension length for a lever pedal system as for circular pedals.
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