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Survey of broken rudder pins
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=15555		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Al Kube [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Survey of broken rudder pins
Hi AIers
- I've sailed with AIers who have broken many, few, and no rudder pins. I have been sailing my AI for three years often in high and gusty winds and in shallow waters. I have never broken a rudder pin (until my next sail). Maybe I'm just lucky, or it's something about how I sail, or that I don't secure the rudder down line.
- So here's the survey:
1. How many rudder pins have you broken?
2. Do you secure the rudder down line?
3. Did your broken pins occur with rudder down line secured?
--------------- Al K
Author:  rokraider [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
I haven't actually broken a pin, but one got fairly mangled when I was having problems with the old rudder up / down system, where the rudder would pop up whenever there was a strong wind. With the rudder half up having popped off, there was a lot of leverage being put on the pin.

Since fitting the later system together with a completely new rudder assembly (without the lock down bolt), I have not had a problem. I sail with it locked down tight all the time and rely on the dagger board touching down first to give me early warning. I do not bungee the dagger board down, so it can freely swing back in the shallows if need be. I have inadvertently had the rudder hit the bottom whilst locked down, but only whilst moving very slowly going to the beach. Other than it not being big enough, it is working ok.
Author:  Jim_L [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
Al Kube wrote:
Hi AIers
- I've sailed with AIers who have broken many, few, and no rudder pins. I have been sailing my AI for three years often in high and gusty winds and in shallow waters. I have never broken a rudder pin (until my next sail). Maybe I'm just lucky, or it's something about how I sail, or that I don't secure the rudder down line.
- So here's the survey:
1. How many rudder pins have you broken?


Six pins in three years
One the first year - Original style twist & stow mechanism, and first generation "round head" pin
Two the second year - Twist & Stow recall installed, one was first generation pin, and one was second generation "D-head" pin
Three this year - All second generation pins

Al Kube wrote:

2. Do you secure the rudder down line?


Yes, every time.

Al Kube wrote:

3. Did your broken pins occur with rudder down line secured?


See answer #2

I am looking forward to getting the new style (third generation) rudder pins. Supposed to be stronger, but I thought they said that about the second generation pins too. We'll see. Still, Hobie has been great about pretty much everything in supporting these boats, so I can't complain too much. I have a lot of fun with my AI, and nobody will ever claim that I've babied her. A couple of those pins did earn their retirement, but a couple of the breaks were ones that I think never should've happened.


Happy Sailing,
- Jim L
Author:  saipedaddlefisher [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
1. 3 (in 18 months)
2. Yes (I can't sail with it loose)
3. Yes
Author:  Joseph Thompson [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
1. 5 over three seasons, 2 with the old "twist and stow" and 3 with the upgraded system. First two were the bendy, "round head" style pins.
2. If I don't secure the rudder down line, my boat has wicked weather helm...not even that, the rudder just flops up and becomes totally ineffective.
3. Thus, all breaks happened with rudder cleated down, and tight.

I can always tell when they are about to go...rudder becomes quite mushy in response....you can feel the pin bending and starting to give way, and it won't take long after that to break. I've resorted to a stainless pin at times, and look forward to the new, hardened, version. We'll see.

I agree with Jim_L...while mostly a grand slam design from stem to stern, there is no good reason for a critical piece of hardware, so-called, to break (repeatedly) under normal sailing conditions. If the rudder attach hull tolerances are truly that narrow, Hobie needs to strengthen it sufficiently to allow for a break-away pin that only breaks when hitting a true obstruction, not stiff water.
Author:  ElementAI [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
I have broken 1 pin in 10 months.
I do not cleat the rudder line down.
No the pin broke as it was the 2008 original pin under heavy weather 20+ mph wind 10mph boat speed.
Author:  LBYak [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
3 Rudder pins broken
by friends sailing my second boat
only one was while sailing in 20MPH winds
2 where from getting beached with the rudder still locked down :lol:
these were all 2nd generation pins
I am getting good a swapping them in high wind situations with my bare hands

I have used the paddle to steer the boat
(I had the rudder up to go over a kelp field)
there is a great deal of force to over-come.

The boat seems to be unbalanced
the mast should be further back towards the stern
that would make the boat track better
(don't think I want the mast between my legs though)

Further-more

I am not enamored with the twist and stow rudder System
it is a great piece of engineering
but I think a more simple rudder up and down system would be more reliable
for steering
Twist and Stow is a flashy Hobie way of stowing the rudder. It may be good enough for kayaks but I think the AI Needs something different. There are different forces (From wind on a Sail) involved that a Kayak doesn't have to endure.
I have been knocked back onto the beach because of loss of steering
this broke the aka brace and broke my torqeedo off
In hindsight I guess I could have done things better
but ultimately the rudder was the culprit
and had it been more reliable I would not have ended back on the beach
If there were a third party alternative to this rudder system I would swap it out immediately

Sorry for getting off topic
Author:  makenmend [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
never had one break ( Boat Nov 07)have replaced 2 pins as precaution.

allways cleat under tension.

would like more rudder control in higher winds.
Author:  k-bay cruiser [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
about 10 in 2 years, all 2nd gen
Cleated as tight as possible unless in shallow water
All breaks while cleated tight, mostly in open water while just sailing along.
Author:  Tom Ray [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
I have not broken any pins, generally don't secure the rudder down unless it's windy, and have had the boat a year and a half or so.
Author:  mmiller [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
Regarding several of the replies here... I can't imagine sailing the AI without the rudder cleated down (hard). If you get any speed, the rudder just comes up without it.
Author:  Pirate [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
mmiller wrote:
Regarding several of the replies here... I can't imagine sailing the AI without the rudder cleated down (hard). If you get any speed, the rudder just comes up without it.

A curious aspect of this vexing issue is the large variance in boat behaviour experienced by owners. Some boats demand to be cleated or the blade lifts while others perform beautifully either way. Some boats seem to experience internal mechanism problems from the beginning. My own AI steers perfectly well in both kayak and sail mode with the line cleated or not cleated without the blade lifting in all wind and wave conditions.
As Matt has reminded me on more than one occasion I have not broken a pin. I however still stand firmly in the camp of those who believe that Hobie should get the boat right either by beefing up the hull or re-engineering the system so the pin can be built strong enough to withstand all that sailing stresses can deliver without failing other than when striking a submerged object. They have done an outstanding job with the boat generally but they need to go the extra mile with issues such as this and paint finishes etc. ......Pirate
Author:  Chekika [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
Original pin broke after about 1.5 yrs of use. Steered w/ paddle for half mile, but found it physically too demanding. So, I went to shore and changed the pin--easy to do once I trimmed it to a D-style head with my Leatherman tool. I'm now replacing the pin every 8 months.

I cleat the up/down line tight at all times.

I'm in the camp of LBYak when he concludes that the "twist-n-stow" rudder is not the best for the AI. The t-n-s rudder was designed for Hobie's kayak line and is probably not the ideal system for the AI.

Keith
Author:  ron34422 [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
I just bought my two AI's this past week and I have not had any trouble with the rudder pins yet...they are 2010 models...I assume they have the new rudder pin...I'll check on that

My Fulmar 19 tri has a simple rudder design that works well...I use an aluminum rudder pin but the hold down line is resting in a jam cleat instead of the cam cleat on the AI...it's designed to "pop out" if the rudder hits anything at speed...I've never hit anything yet to really test it...if I hit the rudder hard with my hand it does release however...

Ron

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Author:  Pirate [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Survey of broken rudder pins
With the stern light in place I am assuming that you use the kayak at night Ron. Thanks for the photos of the rudder set-up and I am here thinking how fortunate you are to have the 2010 AI models already...Pirate :wink:
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