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AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=32773		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  penorman [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Three of us recently did a 3-day 40-mile trip down the Lower Columbia River in 2 AIs and a 17-foot NDK Explorer fiberglass sea kayak. The NDK is a pretty high performance kayak. This trip provided an interesting (to me, at least) comparison of the craft. I am an AI fan, and I thought that the AIs with pedal drives might be at least as fast as the sea kayak in calm wind. Not even close. The much faster hull speed of the kayak easily outweighed the power of the pedal drives, and the kayak far outdistanced the AIs in calm wind and headwinds. (In a later day trip, the AI without sail and amas and heavy gear was much closer to the NDK kayak in speed, though still not as fast). On the other hand, the AIs handily beat the kayak on the (rare) occasions on which we had favorable winds. There was a 5-hour period in which high headwinds whipped up large waves, and the AIs felt much more stable than the kayak in those conditions. The AIs could also carry much more gear, without the hassle of stuffing it all through small hatches.

On balance, though the AI did not live up to my hope that it would be easier to propel than an efficient sea kayak in calm water, I think it is a great craft for this sort of multiday trip.
Author:  sammy925 [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Well all I can say is, different boats for differnt strokes :? . The AI is a different animal altogether. I wouldn't dare take an NDK 15mi out in the gulf. But I managed it in the AI and further with no problem. It wasn't my smartest move,, but it handled it while fishing so well that I didn't realize I was that far out till I checked the GPS. Not to mention I can strip it for inshore calm water use and peddle right to up within feet of a school of redfish and or wild life for photos without spooking the target. Paddel craft MIGHT get in as close as 10-12yds (if your a practiced stealthy paddler) and then try to manage a rod or camera and positioning at the same time for a cast or a pic.
Live well placement? Tackle boxes? Gaff? Bang stick? Back-up propulsion method? Cooler? GPS/Fishfinder? Rod holders? Granted you may not want those functions if all you want to do is paddel and camp. But thats what the Hobie engineers obviously had in mind and did cover,,, all those issues. I thought long and hard about what my intended use was when I bought the Revo, (inshore bays and Coastal fishing and camping). And it delivered. Then I looked out in the Gulf, and knew I wanted to do that and added the AI. And it REALLY delivered. Different boats for different strokes, simply put. Just saying. :D
Author:  Julian Patrick [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
I live just a few miles from where the NDK kayaks are made (irrelevant I know).

Do the Ai's have larger flipper choices?

Would the Ti be even slower (solo)? two up?
Author:  chrisj [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Yeah, the AI, fully rigged is really at its best in open water. For travelling up rivers, I find the amas are more of a drag than they're worth. Hobie, in their wisdom, designed them so they drag in the water, even when the boat is not leaning. Even worse, they drag even more when you fold them back. I have never understood why they weren't designed to lift up when folded back, so they could easily be deployed and undeployed as needed.
The TI seems to have been designed with the amas more out of the water when the boat is running flat.
Author:  stringy [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
penorman,
I'm surprised you thought that the AI would be competitive without wind. :shock:
The extra weight, drag and less aerodynamic shape of the AI all contribute to a much slower cruising speed in calm conditions. As good as the Miragedrive is it won't transform all that excess baggage into a sleek cruising craft.
Even our old Oasis was much faster than the AI when the wind died. :wink:
Sounds like a great trip though. Any details? :)
Author:  mmiller [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Julian Patrick wrote:
Do the Ai's have larger flipper choices?

Would the Ti be even slower (solo)? two up?


All MirageDrives have 3 fin options. Using the Turbo (largest) fins and in "Adventure" mode... just the main hull... A light fiberglass kayak can still be faster. The MirageDrive is best at torque. It excels in current, wind, load, drag. Even without real kayak skills. When you look for top speed, it's hard to beat a sleek, light hull and a good paddler. Still, the endurance factor over time usually goes to the Mirage.

The Tandem is a longer hull and faster if single handed. Similar to the AI when two up.
Author:  Julian Patrick [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Thank you Matt. Good performance against wind and tide is good news (these being often what cause the problems).
Author:  augaug [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
mmiller wrote:
Still, the endurance factor over time usually goes to the Mirage.



Ok, I'm about to do the unthinkable. I have tremendous respect for Matt Miller, and at the risk of forfeiting any warranty claim in the future, I have to question (or disagree?) with just one sentence. I'm not sure that "the endurance factor over time usually goes to the Mirage."

Matt's dead right about the torque, and if you're going on a long tour with fully loaded traditional kayakers, you'll notice that if you split the gear evenly, the traditional kayaker will have more of his top speed limited then the mirage drive boater. The torque makes taking on extra weight, much less of an issue.

The endurance factor that Matt talks about is probably less correct in practical use for the following reason: Mirage drive boats, by design force the user to have short "strides", while a sea kayak can use nice LONG strokes to achieve the same speed. The short strides of a Mirage kayak can be compared to walking, while the long strokes of a paddle kayak can be compared to a joggers lengthened stride.

Going fast in a mirage kayak feels like speed walking, you're always limited by your short stride. Going fast in a traditional kayak is different because you gain the benefit of a longer stroke at a slower cadence. Where the analogy falls apart is in the fact that the longer stroke of kayaking isn't as tiring as jogging, its more like changing to a higher gear on a bicycle. If you were on a bike and told to go fast, you'd work your way up to a gear that allowed you to slow your cadence but cover more distance. In addition to all of the hull design benefits of a traditional kayak, it's that longer stroke which can give a benefit over a long trip.

At the end of the day, if you're only buying your mirage drive kayak for speed, you should look elsewhere. But, if like most users, speed is simply a factor in a decision that involves juggling several balls, then the Mirage Drive can't be beat.

A Hobie Mirage Drive kayak is like the Mercedes-Benz of kayaks. It's not a Lamborghini, but that's what makes it so easy to live with on a daily basis.

If you want speed, buy the Adventure, it's faster then any recreational kayak that I've tried, and doesn't give up much to the sleekest of traditional kayaks. It also gives you almost all of the benefits of the rest of the Hobie kayak line.

--- Hey Matt, we're still cool right? :) ---
Author:  mmiller [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Of course!

I think most people are more fit in their legs than arms though, so that is what my opinion on endurance is based. I'm not talking about a paddler who is trained or super fit. The average Joe off the street will be able to pedal further than they could paddle.
Author:  augaug [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
mmiller wrote:
The average Joe off the street will be able to pedal further than they could paddle.


Absolutely!

People need to remember that if YOU want to go as fast as possible, the Mirage Drive is the way to go. If you jump on a Mirage Drive Kayak, you need no training to be at peak efficiency. Literally any idiot can do it, and do it consistently, without ever missing a stroke.

If YOU, with no training, jump into a sleek traditional kayak, you won't find the speed benefit until you can nail every stroke, every time, and do that for hours on end.

If you're slower then SOMEONE ELSE who has a traditional, sleek kayak, it's likely because they didn't spend significant coin on their boats without first having a bit of a clue on how to paddle efficiently for long periods of time.

For the average user, with no special training, an Adventure with turbo fins is going to be easily the fastest boat for you.
Author:  OasisGuy [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
That's exactly what pointed me in the direction of the Mirage Drive boat.

I am the Joe off the street and I can pedal the Mirage Drive for hours. A 'paddle' would knock me up in no time.
Author:  dosjers [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
augaug wrote:
If YOU, with no training, jump into a sleek traditional kayak, you won't find the speed benefit until you can nail every stroke, every time, and do that for hours on end.

If you have no training and jump into a sleek traditional kayak the first thing that will happen is you will tip over and find yourself swimming next to the boat. Normally the faster the boat the easier it tips over. The great thing about the Hobies is that they are really a stable platform to sit on even as a beginner.
Author:  sammy925 [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Quote:
augaug said, " Literally any idiot can do it, and do it consistently, without ever missing a stroke."

Ok, NOW you piss me off and disrespect my training and others with that statement. While I realize that a good majority of folks that do this are some what older sedentary folks,,,there are many that are athletes. I train very hard in the gym 5days a week and concentrate of the white muscle fiber for aerobic conditioning. I go to sea and pit myself solo offshore fishing to the challenge which is VERY dangreous. As a U.S.Naval Special Warfare guy I know I have to bring it to the limit that I have in me, and I must be ready to be taken to task, and mentally beyond. If you think you are the caliber that listens to the stroke and measure of force and recovery you would not say that. This is a well thought out training plan and NOT idiot proof. Underway nutrition is also a major factor. While you can bring a surf board to a wind surfing competition,, you know where you stand with your board when you hear the horn. Over a 24hr period in the Gulf Of Mexico?? I'll take the Pepsi challenge and put money up. I stand by My first post on this subject. Buy the craft for your intended use,,,and use allll of it,, otherwise wasted money. Don't buy a Baja off road racing machine when all you need to do is go to the store in a scooter. The entire comparison to begin with was very "silly boy, go home and come back when you grow upish" :D
.
Author:  Roadrunner [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
Sammy, I have to go along with augug's statement. It wasn't meant as a criticism, but as an illustration of how easy the Mirage is to operate proficiently vs. a paddle. Frequently I launch in the proximity of a new group of traditional kayakers learning the basics in one of the fashionable kayak schools here. Two hours later I return and find the same group still standing on the shore, life vests on, swinging the paddle in the air, so they can learn the "correct" technique. It's the most ridiculous sight!

That said, I agree with you 100% that training and technique play a significant role in for those who choose to increase their performance with the Mirage Drive. It just isn't as obvious to the inexperienced eye.
augaug wrote:
At the end of the day, if you're only buying your mirage drive kayak for speed, you should look elsewhere.
While it's true there are faster kayaks, I have to disagree to some extent. Given the length, width and type, I don't think there is a kayak made, regardless of materials or weight, that can keep pace with a well driven Adventure -- not even close. This has been demonstrated more than once in head-to head official races (specifically the Bay 2 Bay races here in San Diego). In fact, the Adventure (not the AI) will beat most SIKs of comparable length as well. I can't think of any 16 footers that can sprint over 7.5 MPH or cruise over 5.7 miles in an hour, both of which are WELL within the capability of the Adventure with Turbofins.

Furthermore, if you'll look at Kal-P-Dal's post, on the general forum viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32518
you'll find not only some pretty impressive speeds, but close inspection of the results will show the longer the "race" the smaller the speed advantage the longer high performance kayaks have. Stroke length has nothing to do with it. BTW, a good Mirage Drive stroke has a tip sweep of over 44" (and provides full centerline thrust with each stroke).8)
Author:  Chekika [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Fiberglass Sea Kayak
This is an argument that I don't want to get into. My personal experience, and I am a senior citizen, I wear out faster pedaling an AI than I do paddling a sea kayak.

Now, penorman and others that think they are going to generally beat a sea kayak to a given destination on a given day, forget about it. My experience has been that the kayakers will usually get there first because they are not dependent upon wind direction or strength. Yes, wind in their face will slow them down, but definately not stop them. Of couse, w/ favorable winds, the AI/TIs will beat the kayakers hands-down. But, that is usually not the case (i.e., favorable winds.)

So, don't worry about it. You will have your day. The other days, let the kayakers have their fun.

Keith
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