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Evolve?
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=33281		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Roller [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Evolve?
Does anyone have any idea what the estimated life span of the battery and motor is in hours, and has anyone had any problems with there Evolve?
Author:  mmiller [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
Longevity of the battery is significant. They say:

Quote:
Lithium-manganese battery life expectancy: Charge cycles are not the main factor affecting the service life of the lithium-manganese battery. The battery does not have a memory-effect. Generally, a loss of capacity of 4% per year can be assumed. Ageing is accelerated if the battery is exposed to high temperatures for long periods and if it is stored fully charged for long periods.
Therefore, the battery can be used in very hot conditions, but should be removed from the sun and stored in a cool place when not used. If it is stored for a longer period of time, its charge status should be about 50%. If these instructions are followed, your battery will have a life expectancy of some 6-10 years.
Integrated battery specifications: The integrated battery has a capacity of 230 Wh, i.e. 8 Ah at 28.8 V..
Author:  tudor.chindea [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
Has anyone tried using a more powerfull motor on TI?
I was thinking of buying the Torqeedo 1003 instead of the evolve, I would use it for longer trips, mostly at half trotle, I wonder hoe much range and speed I would gaing over the Evolve
Author:  mmiller [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
It takes little power to push a TI through the water... the eVolve has the thrust of a 2hp motor.

Putting something bigger seems to be overkill. Like a V8 in a VW?
Author:  PassWind [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
Matt - do these systems recharge the battery when not being used as a motor but still installed - as in sailing with them ?
Author:  tudor.chindea [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
if the e-volve has a range of let's say 2 hours at half power and a gives a presumed speed of 3 knots couldn't I get, with the Torqeedo 1003 (at half power) a much bigger range and more speed?

I am not interested in the maximum power of those motors but in a bigger range (6-7 hrs) at a decent speed (4 knots)
Author:  bluehen [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
Matt,

The 2011 model of the Torqeedo Ultralight 403 kayak motor [from which the Evolve has clearly been derived] comes with a newly upgraded 320 Wh battery, at no increase in price. Any idea when the Evolve will make that upgrade from the current 230 Wh unit?

Torqeedo is also offering a 62W solar charger option that looks very interesting.

Just got our TI, and already looking for ways to spend more money... :)

Doug
Author:  ChaosDave [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
guys if it is for an AI or a Tandem i would highly discrouage spending the big bucks on a Evolve an instead use a stock trawling motor on a homemade transom. You can get Way larger(also heavier) batteries for far less and that will use a standard voltage (12 or 24) so you can use stock chargers and solar panels if you like. While the evolve is nice it is waaaaaaay overpriced.
Author:  mmiller [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
The cost of the eVolve is related to the weight savings (16 lbs all up) and the long range / high power of the Lithium and Torqeedo motor combination. I can't imagine hauling a TI and a huge standard lead acid battery down to the beach.

We have not announced changes to the eVolve yet.
Author:  Dieter [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
Hi
My post doesn't answer the orginal questions asked but I've thought this might be of interst. In Canberra, (Australia) a guy has modded a generic electric motor to fit the hobie. In this case he uses a Jarvis Walker 38lb thrust 'Watersnake' where the motor is placed through mirage drive well and is held in place with the mirage plug, very similar to the evolve motor. It can be hooked up to a power source that is as big as you're prepared to spend on a battery.

This is a 12 volt system that uses a sealed lead acid battery as the power source. He uses a large capacity 120AH battery. Lithium manganese, lithium iron phosphate and other lithium chemistries are now proving their worth as a power source and I think are a better alternative to SLA. But, as in everything, there are trade offs.

It provides an alternative to the evolve. Here's the link for those intersted: http://stealthserpent.com

He also makes a scupper cart that is a heavy duty version with nifty rod holder attachments.

Credit to Yakass.net where I first saw these items and apologies for getting a bit off topic.

Dieter
Author:  Liquid Surf_FWB [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
There is no comparison between the Torqueedo and a standard trolling motor and lead acid battery. Helped a customer load a Native Volt motor into the truck today. All I could think about was happy I was that we didn't have to load the batter all the way out to the truck (only because we don't sell them). You definitely pay for the technology but it is worth it. On another note while at the Miami boat show I spoke directly with the guys from Torqueedo and they said you can charge their battery a thousand times. That is basically my lifetime!!!
Author:  fusioneng [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
I have to agree with Matt on this one, I have a friend with a Minn Kota trolling motor, and she has two large batteries she hauls around (she can't even lift the batteries herself (I would guess 60 - 70 lbs ea)). She is very green ( a far left democrat) and will not use gas under any circumstances on her boat (correct thinking IMO). But current battery technology is what it is (primitive), and the electronics on the standard motors on the market today (huge power hogs) dictates what is out there (thats why it is all so cheap and affordable, because it all sucks). As a design engineer myself I really appreciate the work that went into the Evolve system, it is light years ahead of anything else out there on the market today or in the next 2-3 years. Kudos to Hobie for realizing this and putting out something with this much vision and foresight (working closely with Torqeedo of course). The world is changing very fast, and with just a ten year supply of Lithium left on the planet most everyone else is on the wrong bandwagon (except Hobie). You get what you pay for in this world, and the Hobie Evolve system is well worth the cost (just think about it 16 lbs including the battery, there is nothing else within lightyears of this out there today or on the drawing boards, (reality check, kind of reminds me of the Mirage system). Now to some this can all be construed as taking both sides, for those that know me, all know I have a small 4 cycle gas motor on my TI (25 lbs). Because I'm a long distance guy, and go out in the ocean (sometimes 30-40 miles away from launch). I use the motor only in emergencies (life threatening at times) and have only used it 3 times due to breakdowns, or loss of wind while out at sea in the last year or so, but only after being exhausted from peddling as a last resort. As an inventor some of my inventions (just coming to market now) are devices that help extend the life of existing oil wells, with these we can possibly get an extra ten more years of oil in the world (beyond current estimates), but but once it's gone it's gone forever. We are all on notice to think forward not backwards, and in my opinion Hobie is up there (my two cents). Hobie rocks as a company.
Bob
Author:  tudor.chindea [ Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
I am trying to figure out if the Evolve has enough power on a TI (loaded for long trips) in those kind of difficult situations like Bob mentioned. If you are far from the shore, in the ocean, upwind....

I just ordered my TI and want to order now a Torqeedo, still hesitating between the Evolve and the Torqeedo 1003 (double power, double weight)

what would you choose between the 2?
I am not interested in the fixing system but more on range and speed. I have no experience with motors so I don't really understand if doubling the power of the motor I would gain range and speed (on a TI with 2 people aboard and fully loaded)

I would appreciate advises from people who used motors on the TI (evolve or other motors)
Author:  Roadrunner [ Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
I haven't run either unit on the TI, but have operated the evolve in both the drivewell (Pro Angler and Outback) and rudder (Outback) position. I've also operated it in several modes -- as a sole power source, in combination with pedaling, sailing and all three simultaneously. The performance characteristics of the evolve followed the same pattern with both boats, only at a slightly different speed. The TI should follow suit here, but at higher speed.

Before getting into a discussion on performance, lets look briefly at a couple of ergonomic issues. From a physical point of view, the evolve would seem to have a couple of critical advantages. 1. It can stow in the forward hatch when not in use. Where would you store the Torqeedo when not in use? How would you mount it and where (looks like it comes as a transom mount) 2. The evolve operates remotely from your seat whereas the Torqeedo appears to require operation at the motor itself. If this is true, the Torqeedo 1003 might be impractical on the TI, regardless of power.

Now lets look at performance. A general guideline in kayak boat speed is that it every half knot increase in speed approximately doubles the power requirement. So if the Torqeedo 1003 has twice the power of the evolve, it would be a mistake to think you'll gain much speed, and operating in such a fashion will reduce your range dramatically. Looking at the following graph, you'll see this was borne out with both the PA and Outback:
Image

First note the greatly different power requirements and ranges at different speeds. The Outback range varied between 3.3 and 24.5 miles in the power-only mode, reaching a point of diminishing returns quickly above 4 MPH.

Note also, the power curve for the Pro Angler is almost identical. It runs about .1 to .2 MPH slower than the Outback for the same power input. You might expect the TI performance to mirror these at perhaps 1 to 1.5 MPH faster (depending on weight, configuration and environmental conditions)

Here's the result of an experiment from another forum member:
wildcartoo wrote:
Because I had already made a 2 motor bracket for my Outback, I couldn't help but try using both 30lb thrust trolling motors. I took my GPS with me so I could record my speed. With both motors running on high (5th speed) the best my empty Qutback could manage was 4.6 - 4.7 mph. Next I tried using only one motor and the speed was 4.3 - 4.4 mph. Obviously, using 2 motors would deplete the battery twice as fast as one and I only gained a couple of tenths at best over using a single 30lb trolling motor.
In looking at range parameters with the TI, it's realistic to note that an electric motor is one of only three power sources. Operating your electric motor concurrently with sail and/or pedal power has an enormous impact on range and/or a modest impact on speed if desired. The scenario where two Mirage Drives and a sail all fail is extremely unlikely. The chart above will at least give you some clues as to what to expect using hybrid power (blue line compared with the green line).

Bottom line is, twice the power will not give you any additional speed without reducing your range accordingly. Doubling your battery storage will double your range at the same speed. Changing your speed strategy and/or running the electric motor along with another available power source can have a greater effect on your range than battery capacity.

This may not answer your question entirely, but hopefully it will give you some points to ponder in deciding between the Torqeedo 1003 vs evolve. 8)
Author:  tudor.chindea [ Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolve?
Thanks for very relevant information

The main difference between the two motors is the propulsive power. Evolve has 180 W and 1003 has 480 W in propulsive power. (1003 is proposed for up to 1,5 to boats)

Also the evolve has a 320 W battery while 1003 has 520 W batery.

Now coming back to your graphs, I saw that used 50W of power for a speed of 3mph. What I would like to know is, if you put on the same kayak a Torqeedo 1003 and use it at 50W, would the speed increase? If it does it means that I will have a lot more range with the 1003

I would install the 1003 at he stern (with some fixing system) it has 13 kg included the integrated battery so maybe it would rise a bise the bow of the TI (I saw on the forum that this would be desireable) at I am sure Torqeedo can provide a remote. Hopefully it can be lifted for beaching or when not in use. The battery being integrated seems also an advantage to me
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