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Tramps in gusty winds
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=53142		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ranger29 [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Tramps in gusty winds
Hi all,
I just recently tried out the tramps I purchased for my TI.
I enjoy sailing the N. California lakes and am pretty used to the unpredictable, variable winds that are usually the norm on mountain lakes.
Yesterday, the winds were variable around 10-15 kts and great fun....... until ............Holy Moly, :o ........An unexpected gust nailed us broadside. (NOAA rated the gusts at 20-25 kts.).
It appeared to be a bad idea to have rigged these tramps during high winds, The upwind tramp caught all the wind....and although we didn't go over, It was a heart in mouth situation. The wind under the trampoline started taking us right on over.
I know the TI is considered really stable, however we were close.
Granted, those were high wind gusts and I would never rig the tramps in that situation again.
But, I'm wondering are the tramps only suitable for mild conditions.
We anticipated being able to hike out on them but everything happened so fast that we couldn't.
I'm thinking of switching over to hakas and just using the tramps on nice calm days.
Appreciate any input.
Don, Mendocino CA Papaya TI
Author:  fusioneng [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
Don:
I suspect the main thing trying to tip you over was the big thing above your head (the sail) way more so than the tramp. Whenever it's gusty and windy like that I always furl the sail in a turn or two, I try to keep the control line unlocked and be ready to let it out, if I feel a gust is going to tip me over I also turn into the wind. One of the main reasons I always drive from the front seat is so I can hike out. My opinion is you can get a whole lot more out of your TI if your willing to hike out of that seat.
Chances are if that gust was going to tip you over it would have with or without the tramps. I still prefer the tramps over no tramps because I really feel trapped just sitting in the seat. I haven't tried HAKA's but really have no desire to either. I guess what I'm saying is if you really want to get the most out of your boat in windier conditions balancing your boat with your weight and doing everything you can to keep those dang AMA's out of the water will give you the best performance ( no different from any other sail boat out there). I also store a lot of gear (and passengers) on our tramps, I just prefer them no matter the conditions.
Hope this helps
Bob
Author:  KayakingBob [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
The first week Hobie Tramps were available here in Hawaii, two different experienced Island sailors flipped their islands over coming off waves. The wind just grabbed under the tramps and they were over!
Author:  Chekika [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
I acquired a set of tramps when I bought my used 2011 AI. Never used them. Sold them to a family up north who is happy with them--I think. In any case, tramps just look too risky to me. Even my hakas noticeably caught winds the first few times I used them. Perhaps, I've gotten used to them or, perhaps, it is less of a problem because I often have camping gear on them. I can also slide my hakas in or out along the akas to adjust the lift wind leverage on the hakas. That is nice.

Keith
Author:  Lumos [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
I pretty much always sail with my tramps. The person in the front seat almost always rides on the windward tramp especially when the winds are 10-20 knots. Depending on weight, they still fly on the windward side while hiking out but I've never came close to turning turtle.
Author:  Kal-P-Dal [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
Well about tramps, I am pretty sure they help you to tip over.
They are a little too big (IMHO).
In downwind sailing (and down-waves sailing), big waves can screw your boat to go side ways (NOT so comfortable!).
Even if you don't have full pressure on main sail in that situation, the wind can get under your windward tramp, and tip you over.
With hakas, you can make THEM narrower, just enought to sit on, they are not the same area for the wind to grip.

I have NO experience of tramps (too expensive for me).
Take it for what this is. A personal opinion.

ALSO a personal opinion is that AI and TI should be run in a position as long aft as you can go, and furl your sail in good time.


br thomas
Author:  Tom Kirkman [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
I have had the same thing happen and wish that the Hobie tramps were a more open mesh/weave so they would pass more air/wind in these situations.
Author:  KayakingBob [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
Tom Kirkman wrote:
I have had the same thing happen and wish that the Hobie tramps were a more open mesh/weave so they would pass more air/wind in these situations.
Yep, a more open surface would fix most of the tramps "sail" problem. That was a problem on my first set of test Sprayskirts many years ago too.

The new higher deck and the larger aka on the new AI should fix the "sitting in water" problem when out on the tramps that only the AI seems to have.
Author:  frodo [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
I agree that gusts have more of a flipping style effect with the tramps out and if my kids aren't on them I roll them up in big wind. Also furl the main a little if not in full control.
Author:  chrisj [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
Until the advent of tramps, the only time anyone had reported flipping an AI was in breaking surf, then suddenly, there were reports popping up all over the place of AI's capsizing with tramps fitted.
Without tramps, no matter how hard the wind blows, the boat is pivoting about its hull, so the buoyancy of the leeward ama completely resists this pivoting force. Also, the more the boat heels over, the more the sail spills wind, reducing the force.
With tramps on the other hand, once the wind gets under the windward tramp, it tends to lift the hull and the boat begins to pivot about the leeward ama, rather than the hull, so the ama ceases to be effective. Also, the more the boat begins to lift, the more square the windward tramp is to the wind, so the force of the wind increases, rather than decreases.
Author:  NOHUHU [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
A good splash of whitewater from the side will have the same effect. :shock: I don't like the tramps around swells.
Author:  fusioneng [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
I'm getting the impression here that almost nobody hikes out on their tramps in windier conditions. I'm just guessing here but because my TI has extra sail area, my TI reacts differently from the other TI's out there. With my TI if I'm on a 90 degree reach in winds over 12 mph with all 260 sq ft of sail out my boat capsizes if I'm not hiked out on the tramp. Once your on the tramp it makes no difference if air gets under it. I lean out and use my trapeze to control the amount of air spill and mast bend at the top of the mast. Using my weight to try and keep that AMA out of the water. My trapeze line is nothing fancy like on an h16, it's simply a loose rope tied from the top of the mast to the rear outboard rear AMA that I sometimes hook up. When sailing I tug on the trapeze line for more power and steer with the hiking stick using a combination of my weight and tension/weight on the trapeze line to try and keep the boat level. Of course this setup only works on a beam reach (90 deg) to about 120 degrees down wind, then I have to change to a different configuration. Before adding my wing jib and using the motors this was my best setup where I could achieve the best speeds (around 20mph). Later on in the development (this was all before converting to a full wing jib) I modified the assym spinnaker to a soft wing para foil shape that allowed me to use the spinnaker up to around 70 deg off the wind (actually designing that wing spinnaker is what got me interested in wing sails).
I guess what I'm saying at least with my TI anyway, it makes little difference if the wind catches under the tramp or not because in any conditions where the tramp could ever tip the boat, I'm hiked out on that tramp where my huge weight is much more than any gust could produce, that's why I say the tramps help more than they hurt, everything is a compromise.
That's another reason I always tell everybody, if you want to get the most out your TI you have to be willing to get out of that seat, think about it , pretty much every other boat made depends on your ability to move around the boat to balance out the weight, yet from my observations almost nobody does this with their TI's (just an observation watching other TI owners sailing).
All just my own opinions.
In my opinion sailing without the tramps is like sailing with one hand tied behind your back.
Bob
Author:  stringy [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
In 6 years of sailing AI's/TI, mostly with tramps and often in 20knot+winds, never had a capsize or even really come close.
I agree with Bob (fusioneng), the best way to sail in strong gusty winds is to furl the sail, hike out and be always ready to release the mainsheet.
Of course anything that increases the surface area that is exposed to the wind could contribute to a capsize but I think that the positives that tramps bring to Island sailing far outweigh the negative of slightly increasing the risk of capsizing.
They are easy to roll up out of the way if necessary, after all.
To me the tramps were the best accessory for improving sailing you could get ...that is until the haka took over!
Author:  PassWind [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
Same story here .. lots of heavy wind sailing (I rarely go out unless its blowing over 10mph) and the ONLY time I "almost" went over was in very heavy winds when the tramp caught a gust. If I hadn't have literally dove out of the seat and ontl the tramp I think I would have gone over.

.. that said, if its windy I'll still use them as long as its sustained wind and not gusty. Its easy enough to pop the clasps off the back Ama and stow them if I feel its getting too strong.

Next year I hope to have some Haka's built
Author:  Slaughter [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tramps in gusty winds
I have them but hardly use them. Personally, I like to see more of the water. If I do use them, I just use the starboard one and keep any ropes, spray bottle, dagger board etc out on it, and have the one haka on the port side. Then if a wind gust does hit me from the right, and I'm quick enough to change tack, I can roll up the tramp whilst still under sail without fear of going over. And that theory seems to be working so far.
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