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What's different in Europe?
http://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10980		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mb87 [ Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  What's different in Europe?
After reading lots of the Open and Racing forum entries over the past year I am curious to know what's different in Europe? I know that Hobie Cat USA and Hobie Cat Europe are different companies. I'm just curious about why things are differernt. For example:

Is cat sailing more popular in Europe than in the US? Is that why Hobie Europe offeres more product choices than in the US?

It seems like Hobie Europe has a good collection of fiberglass and rotomolded cats. In comparison it seems like Hobie USA has focused on developing and marketing rotomolded cats and the tried and true H16. It seems like any new fiberglass boats are imported by Hobie USA from Europe. (FX One, Tiger) Is that a fair assessment?

From what I have read it seems like Formula racing is more popular in Europe while class racing is more popular in the US. Is that correct? If so, I'm just curious to know why? It was interesting reading the recent thread about the new F18 Hobie that is being developed in Europe and how it might be a few years before Hobie in the US considered importing the boat.

Any insight will be appreciated. I enjoy understanding the business reasons behind these decisions!
Author:  MBounds [ Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's different in Europe?
mb87 wrote:
Is cat sailing more popular in Europe than in the US? Is that why Hobie Europe offeres more product choices than in the US?

Yes and probably.

mb87 wrote:
It seems like Hobie Europe has a good collection of fiberglass and rotomolded cats. In comparison it seems like Hobie USA has focused on developing and marketing rotomolded cats and the tried and true H16. It seems like any new fiberglass boats are imported by Hobie USA from Europe. (FX One, Tiger) Is that a fair assessment?

That's absolutely correct, although HCE imports some rotomolded boats from the US, too.

mb87 wrote:
From what I have read it seems like Formula racing is more popular in Europe while class racing is more popular in the US. Is that correct?

Not really. The only significant class racing in the US are the Hobie classes, the A-cats and a very select isolated classes (Sharks in Canandaigua, NY and Isotopes in NC). Most other racing in the US is F-18 or handicap.

In Europe, the F-18 is huge, but the other formula classes (F-16 and F-18HT) struggle. They do a lot of handicap racing, too. There are a lot of one-design classes in Europe - more than in the US.

So, I don't think the types of cat sailing/racing in Europe are that much different, but the scale is. Europe is where the US was about 20 years ago in terms of the product cycle (If you're into the economics, look up the "Bandwagon Effect" and "Network Effect" as they relate to product demand.)

There are other economic forces at play, too. Most recently, the dollar has been drepressed against foreign currencies, making imports more expensive. The environmental regulations in the US (especially California) are significantly more stringent than many European countries. Polyester resin is not very environmentally friendly (styrene fumes).

One of the Hobie 16's best qualities is its durability - there are a lot of old boats in the US, but not so much in Europe. These are very attractive to the user who's budget isn't big enough to afford a new boat.
Author:  mb87 [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Matt. thanks for the good information.

I know all about the cost effectiveness of an older H16. That's the only reason I have been able to afford to get into the sport! It would be fun to buy new, but that's not happening for me anytime soon!

When you say that the growth of cat sailing in Europe is like it was in the US 20 years ago, I guess I need a clarification. I thought that Hobie market really started to decline 20 years ago in the US. Wasn't it the introduction of personal water craft in the late 80's that started the downward trend here?

Regarding rotomolded boats. Just curious, is it not possible to make a sleek hull, like the fiberglass boats, using rotomolded plastic? I'm curious to know if rotomold is where things are going in the future.
Author:  MBounds [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:32 am ]
Post subject: 
The absolute peak of the regatta craze was 1982. There were several 300+ boat regattas that year.

There was a slow decline until about 1990, then a sharp decline from then until about '95 / '96.

Part of it had to do with Hobie Cat Company ownership. Coleman sold the company in late 1988 and the money spigot that filled the regatta program's tub dried up. Ownership in the early 90's struggled to make the company profitable and finally sold it to the current group in 1995.

The Wave was introduced in 1995. The company has recovered considerably since then due to better management and product innovations (Mirage Drive, kayaks).

The regatta program has been fairly stable since the turn of the century. Attendance at events this year was way down, probably due to the cost of gas.

I don't think Europe will see the drastic drop that the US saw in the early 90's, but I do think they are experiencing a period of slow decline, similar to the late 80's.
Author:  mb87 [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
So do you think rotomold is the future or will there be a place for fiberglass for some time to come?
Author:  mmiller [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
MBounds wrote:
The regatta program has been fairly stable since the turn of the century.


Suddenly... I feel VERY old!
Author:  MBounds [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
mmiller wrote:
MBounds wrote:
The regatta program has been fairly stable since the turn of the century.


Suddenly... I feel VERY old!


Matt - I got news for you.

You ARE old.


/I'll get my hat.
Author:  MBounds [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
mb87 wrote:
So do you think rotomold is the future or will there be a place for fiberglass for some time to come?


For the racer, fiberglass has superior strength / weight and a much better surface finish than rotomolded products.

For the recreational sailor - rotomolded stuff is the best. Durable as hell and much less expensive to produce.

Each one has its niche, although the recreational niche is about 10 times as big as the racing one.
Author:  mb87 [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Matt,

Thanks for your input. I have enjoyed the discussion!
Author:  theomi [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:58 am ]
Post subject: 
For your information, Hobbie Europe will present during the Paris exhibition 3 new boats :

- 1 new racing F18
- 1 new 18 boat more focus on fun & raid called Pearl
- 1 new 17 (solo)


Theomi
http://catamaran-de-rando.typepad.fr
Author:  IndyWave [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:07 am ]
Post subject: 
theomi wrote:
1 new 18 boat more focus on fun & raid called Pearl



What is the meaning of "raid" here? I've seen it before in European references to recreational boats, but it seems to have lost something in translation.
Author:  J_Eaton [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
- 1 new 18 boat more focus on fun & raid called Pearl
fun = recreational, right?

Quote:
the recreational niche is about 10 times as big as the racing one.
hmmm

Pearl...the resurrection of the Hobie 18 :wink:
Author:  Gordo Bagley [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  raid?
Just guessing here, but judging by the look of the boat, I'd say 'raid' means cool factor.
Author:  John Lunn [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Raid
Raid is a term used by many European cat sailors, which roughly translates as 'an expedition'. That is, take a couple of cats, plus some food and camping gear, and sail as a group from island to island for 2, 3, 4 or more days. Like pirates raiding, get it?

This can also be done along a coastline as well. Think Greek islands, think of the coastline from Split to Dubrovnik, think Tahiti. How about along the coast of Florida, in the Keys, Lake Mead (AZ), or like two famous folks did years ago, around Cabo St Lucas and northwards in the Sea of Cortez on H18. (The older brother now flies Hobie Hawks.)

The Pearl sounds suspiciously like a revamped H18, likely with skeg keels instead of daggerboards. With a stronger US$, and a weaker Euro, this may be interesting.
Author:  IndyWave [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:52 am ]
Post subject: 
I was thinking it was somehow related to pirate or Viking raids, but I didn't know how much of that went on these days.

That, coupled with the more common phrase being "for fun and profit", I thought maybe 'raid' was somehow business related.

All calling to mind various scenes from Monty Python or Eric the Viking...

Thank you for clearing that up for me! It sounds like a fun way to spend a vacation!
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