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need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
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Author:  bamaH18 [ Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
I'm a newb going out for outing number seven tomorrow. Number six including three capsizes and several near misses, but it was also the biggest wind I have sailed in at 15-17 knots with some serious gusts. Tomorrow should be a steady 10 knots. Boat is 81 H18 with 85 sails and the rig is in good order. The near misses were only possible because I didn't let it go and stayed closer to the wind, and reacted steering to wind at any hint of lift, that took some fun out of it.

Help me understand what to do when the hull lifts too far. Of course, I need crew weight out over the beam as far as possible, and the sheets relaxing will bring the hull down.

But what is the correct rudder action to prevent or stop excess lift? I know steering to wind stops the boat, but it seems if the hull is up high then that action is like high siding on a motorcycle. I'm thinking it's like a stunt car that is up on one side balanced on two wheels, let's say the left side wheels. In that case turning right will flip the car, and turning left will bring it back down. Forgive me for the landlubber analogy but just trying to get my head around the issue.

For example, running with wind abeam on the starboard side, moving along good and the hull lifts too quickly. Should I relax the sheets and turn to port, or relax the sheets and turn to starboard into the wind? That's a long way to go if wind is abeam.

Also, which has the greatest effect, the rudder action or sail trim?

I don't mind getting wet or the huge bruise on my thigh from last time, but I've been out single handed the last two times so I need to keep it upright. Tomorrow I should have my sailing friend who is also a newb with me, but I'm going even if single handed again.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.
Author:  gthomas [ Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
The steps you're taking to keep the hull from flying too high are correct:

hike out
sheet out
steer into the wind

keep practicing and you'll be able to fly a hull like a pro.
Author:  bamaH18 [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
Thanks Greg, needed to double check before going out today.

It was the best wind yet. Ten knots steady for the afternoon, no heavy gusts, but too many powerboats and watercraft on the weekend. It was good, but I have another problem. My crew can't handle it, can't move, not nimble enough and freezes up trying to get things done. Wrapped up in the sheet, sitting on the sheet, you name it. He's frustrated and probably done. And forget asking for a backwind when a tack is stopped short because of a boat coming around the corner. He knows how to do it, but can't keep up when things happen fast. He thought he wanted to sail, but I'm not so sure. He said he didn't want to "go fast". I told him everything I was doing was to not go too fast and we never lifted, but we sure could have. He seemed concerned to have to put his feet under the straps and lean back, but doesn't really realize how much faster we could have been going. He doesn't trust me on the helm I think and gets behind on his tasks. I've given him the tiller before but he don't want to do that either now. He's done, right guys? Granted I'm no expert but I haven't run into anything yet. And we've sailed right at every rock out cropping and dock on the lake, cause you have to.

It was good to have two on the boat for the weight, but went to the main only and the crew became passenger, and still can't move side to side adeptly, so it's hard for me to keep things flowing in a tack.


So I'm a single handed H18 sailor, and that's a task at my skill level. Any advice for me?

What the best Hobie for single handed? I want to "go fast", too.
Author:  rsbw [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
Bama,

In my opinion the 14 or 14 Turbo is the best single handed cat on the water, no question. I have two of them and am addicted to my babies. I takes a lot of balls or guts to sail an 18 single handed. I'm a fairly experienced sailor and I wouldn't solo an 18 for all the tea in china, to scary and to much going on at once. Be careful out there by yourself Bama, and DON"T GIVE UP ON YOUR CREW! Take it slowly and they'll come around. Crewing a big rocket like the 18 can be intimidating as hell for the new sailor, not to mention the added pressure of trying to do everything right. Just ease into it and their experience level (as well as your speed) will rise. Hope my little pep talk helps, have fun and by all means Be SAFE! Take care an have a Hobie day!

P.S. My parents graduated from Bama in '57.....ROLL TIDE ROLL!!! :mrgreen:
Author:  bamaH18 [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
I appreciate the pep talk. It does help. I'm gonna let my friend tell me when he wants to give it another try, and not pressure him. I know he wants to sail.

I've single handed the 18 three times now, it is an amazing adrenalin rush if the wind is up. But it's too much to handle with so much to do alone. I loved it, but three capsizes required asking for help from someone on the lake. Each time someone came to help right away. They were happy to help and watch, because nobody sails here, it was something new to see for them. After that I used the main only and was OK but not so much fun. I can sail during the week on an almost empty lake and will again if the winds are lighter so I can improve my handling skills and practice for heavier winds. But I won't go out alone in winds over 10 knots, that was a wild day. The inexperienced can get in over their head easy, but I also race vintage flattrack motorcycles at 51 years old, so I'm game. I think the adrenalin keeps my arteries pumped clean. :)

Today is good wind again, but it's Sunday and the lake will be crazy with powered craft. So no single handed 18 sailing today.

I'm gonna look at getting a 14 but can't buy one right now. Need to learn more about them and see what the price ranges might be. It would have to be an older model for me to afford it I'm sure.

Thanks for the input.

edit........ almost forgot ROLL TIDE!!!!! oh wait,.... I'm an Auburn '97 alum, went back to school at 34. Oh well, WAR EAGLE?
Author:  rsbw [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
War Eagle...I like that. I'm a Gator so as long as it's SEC it is all good! I think that the adrenalin rush you speak of is why Hobie owners are a breed apart, once you've sailed a Hobie there is no substitute. Glad your in the family and keep us all up to date on your progress. Take care and as always, have a Hobie day!
Author:  Skipshot [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
bamaH18 wrote:
[b]For example, running with wind abeam on the starboard side, moving along good and the hull lifts too quickly. Should I relax the sheets and turn to port, or relax the sheets and turn to starboard into the wind?

There was a big discussion on this a couple years ago, and I decided to test it out. My findings are to do the following to get the hulls back down before flipping:
1. LEAN OUT!!!!
2. Ease the sails, try not to dump them if you don't want to get teabagged.
3. (Here's the contentious part) Turn the boat gently downwind. I find that heading up sinks the stern and lifts the bows which contributes to a capsize. I've also had success first heading up and then turning down.
4. KEEP LEANING, DAMNIT!!!

Anyone ever had the crew that is trapped out and when he wants to ease the jib he uncleats the sheet then lets it out by leaning into the boat? His name is Gunther and I would kill him if my hands weren't full of main sheet and tiller.
Author:  bamaH18 [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
Thanks for the input. If i tested that, it would probably be by accident considering my skill level. And I'd be wet regardless of what I did. But learning.

In visualizing this, if I naively dismiss the wind when the boat is high up at the tipping point I picture it balanced up there on the lower hull. And turning to the dismissed wind seems like high siding to me, because of forces in the water and the balance point.
Author:  Skipshot [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
bamaH18 wrote:
And I'd be wet regardless of what I did.

You make capsizing sound like a bad thing. However, I must disclose that when I was a boy my mother's problem with me and water was getting me out of it. I'd challenge Michael Phelps to see who loves being in the water more.

bamaH18 wrote:
In visualizing this, if I naively dismiss the wind when the boat is high up at the tipping point I picture it balanced up there on the lower hull. And turning to the dismissed wind seems like high siding to me, because of forces in the water and the balance point.

"Tipping point"? You didn't ask about that before. When you reach the tipping point you're on your own since the rudders are mostly useless and the sails (if not already dumped) have little affect. When the wind gets under the tramp the best advice is to try not to damage the main sail as you go over.
Author:  John Lunn [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
We had this exact 'discussion' yesterday. (BTW, what a beautiful day, our first 'good sailing day' of the season. Partly cloudy, light NW winds, steady, with little chop.)

Monohull sailors will say, "head up", or turn into the wind. Monohulls are designed that way, to be safe. Multihull sailors will say "it depends, but mostly head off, or turn off the wind."

Sure, releasing some mainsheet and/or jibsheet helps, hiking out helps, but if you head up too quickly, there is the chance that you will 'rotate' the cat and contribute to a capsize, especially if the gust of wind gets under the tramp.

My best friend and sailing partner, aka my wife, tends to sail in more gentle conditions that I do, so for her, it is not a problem to head up. When the puffs are stronger, or the wind is up, (in excess of Beaufort Force 4), she gives the helm to me, and I usually head off and/or depower and/or hike out.

The reasoning is that the puffs will accellerate the Hobie, not knock it down. However, you have to watch the trim of the boat, that is, if your bows are down and you are in chop, you are headed for a different kind of trouble - called submarining, often followed by the dreaded pitchpole. This is especially true on H16's, less so on H18's and Tigers.

The only time I would solo an H18 is in company with others, and in very gentle conditions.
Have fun, be safe.
Author:  bamaH18 [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
Skipshot, I did realize the first time that all is lost well before the hull gets balanced up high. I was using that for the sake of discussion, not expecting to save it at that point. Solo there was not enough weight (and skill) to keep it down if the hull had a foot of air under it, granted I was crazy/naive for being out there in 15 knots with gusts. The wind was definitely getting under the tramp.

Since I had no help, I had to keep it down. So I stayed closer to the wind and if it hinted at lifting I pointed quickly. Probably never lifted over six inches then, but each time I corrected it seemed to lift a little more, briefly, because of the rudder action before settling back down. And that is what led to the original post here.

I appreciate the discussion, and the admonitions to stay safe. I've learned my lesson about soloing this boat. But there will be light wind days that I can take it out. And my younger brother has expressed an interest to sail with me.

Thanks again guys.
Author:  Skipshot [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
bamaH18, don't worry too much about the wind getting under the tramp when the hull is only 6" off the water. The hull can get much higher than that before a capsize. You should worry about the wind under the tramp when the wind speed is probably over 20 mph. There are many factors that make a cat capsize such as crew weight, wind speed, skipper and crew skill, water chop, etc., but that is the fun and challenge of flying a hull - balancing the sails, wind, and crew for the conditions.

http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?m ... b882b3ec0c

Keep going out and build your skill and confidence and you'll enjoy the boat more as your fears of it fade.
Author:  gthomas [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
The Hobie 18 is a good single handed boat, especially since you already have one. The best thing about the 18 single handed is that you can furl the jib to depower the boat and make it much more controllable by yourself. When I was a kid I used to single hand the 18 all the time with and without a jib.
Author:  Roy [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?m ... temId=2610

Now all you need is this crew and all your troubles will be over lol. Well maybe not just a whole lot of new ones.
Author:  spesce [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need boat handling advice for when windward hull lifts
Go Vols! :lol:

I was out in 15-23mph this past weekend on a 21SE with just me and my 75year old dad. I was very worried about the amount of wind and knew if we went over for the first time on this boat, we would have a very difficult time getting it righted. Therefore, I chicken sailed the whole day. :shock: Lots of downhaul, beam reaches and in the lulls I would broad reach and in the gusts I would point. My full concentration was on the gusts coming to prepare for what was coming my way. When the wind picked up a notch and I was probably pointing 50 degrees to the wind with the traveler completly out and with the hull out of the water for a couple of miles, I asked my dad to brave the spray and fun to give me all the downhaul he could pull. This completely depowered the main and made the rest of the day bearable. It felt like the boat was wound up very very tight and if I was brave enough to fall off the wind it would take off, but it allowed me to actually stall the sail and enjoy going downwind in that much wind without going balls out.....

Just another idea to keep the boat upright and sailing in more than desired wind. I now feel much better about going out in those winds and surviving easily. I wish I had three on board and we would have been literally flying and not pussyfooting around. More good memories.
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