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De-powering for those of us that don't want to die.
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Author:  Karl Brogger [ Mon May 05, 2008 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  De-powering for those of us that don't want to die.
I got my first sail in yesterday in Minnesota. It was supposed to be 10-15mph winds, I don't know what it actually was during the peak while we were on the water but it had to be close to, if not over 20. Some of the gusts were quite violent. I was on Lake Pepin which is a wide part of the Mississippi River, about 2 miles wide, and 22 miles long with very large bluffs on either side. Normally I don't complain about that kind of wind, but I don't think the water was much over 40 degrees and I wasn't real excited about a capsize wearing polar fleece and a 2 piece spray suit.

I didn't adjust diamond wire tension. On the way south down the lake it was pretty much a beam reach all the way down, with the waves either broadsiding the boat, or with me climbing up the back of the waves. Most of it was 2 foot chop, with some freak 4 footers in the mix. Not a real dry comfortable ride. On the reach I felt semi in control. I burried the front crossbar a few times but only once was I sure I was going over, and luckily didn't.

Heading back up wind was a workout. Hitting most of the waves head on back up the lake. I was travelled out about 5-6" from center, downhaul and outhaul were cranked. But I still was grossly over powered. I had to pinch very hard to keep it semi level.

So what more could I have done? I didn't get out on the trapeze at all, I'm pretty sure it would have ended with me dragging behind the boat.

Another question, I was sheeted out pretty far. Enough that the top 1/3 of my square top was backwinding. Is this the right approach? I was concerned about a batten breaking, but they all made it.

BTW- 18.7 mph on the reach according to my GPS, and sailing timidly.
Author:  J_Eaton [ Mon May 05, 2008 6:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Another question, I was sheeted out pretty far. Enough that the top 1/3 of my square top was backwinding. Is this the right approach?
All the downhaul didn't help unless the main sheet was tight, and you'll get more (downhaul) if the main is tight. It's hard to train your mind that sheeting in hard will keep the hull from popping up. Where was the rotation? The further aft you point the rotation bar the flatter the main, somewhere rear of the daggerboards, maybe at the rear crossbar, takes draft (power) out of the sail. Now all that said, slamming directly in to those waves upwind you may have needed some power to drive through them...Catch 22. A tip from Jim Sohn in that case is to bear off and foot through them (whoa baby hang on!!) Another last ditch depowering tool is raising the boards some to reduce their lift.

Sounds like one of those incredible rides and glad you didn't swim. :)
Author:  dstgean [ Mon May 05, 2008 7:31 am ]
Post subject: 
You mighta been better off with a wetsuit under that spray suit. Or a drysuit for that matter. Glad to hear you kept it pointy side up.

Dan
Author:  MUST5429 [ Mon May 05, 2008 7:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Karl,

You were on the right track..... next time, travel out more, to keep the boat flat, then you can sheet the main in tight to take full advantage of the downhaul and a flattened sail.

You may have to foot off a bit, but as your boat speed increases, the apparent wind will come around to the front a bit and you will actually end up pointing just as high if not higher, and have better boat speed, and more control to boot.

Just an aside, I hope someone was keeping an eye out for your well being, or that someone KNEW when you expected to return. If not, that might be a consideration next time. Go to Catsailor or Beachcats and read the "Saga of Sven" he, like you was young, brash, and in excellent condition, however Mother Nature can be a unforgiving and harsh mistress. He lost his life single handing almost exactly 7 years ago.
Reading his story may save you from making a similar mistake.

Stephen
Author:  Karl Brogger [ Mon May 05, 2008 8:07 am ]
Post subject: 
There was two boats. Mine and a H18SX. I would not have gone out by myself in that kind of wind, on such a big lake with the water being that cold. The 18 was crewed, I was singlehanded.

I can't stand wet suits. I need to get a dry suit.

Rotation was pointed a the rear crossbar. Not straight back, but a little in from the rear corner of the crossbar.

I thought about raising the boards a bit, but I had my hands pretty full. :oops:

Sheeting harder just seems so backwards, and counter intuitive. I know it worked well on the 16 though. The tough thing is the FX doesn't like to steer through the puffs. If there is a little lift it works well, but your speed just drops when you head up, and you can stall pretty easily pinching. With bigger chop its tough to keep that momentum up too. The one thing that I have found going up hill with this boat is that it has a very narrow range going into the wind where it is fast. Footing off doesn't seem to do much.

Do I want top of the sail pulled in though? I would think up bit of twist would help things out by making all that effort at the top of the mast go away. I probably had way too much.....

I didn't even bother rigging the chute. Had the water temp, and the air temp been about 50 degrees warmer I would have probably pulled the kite just to see how far I could make it. But I HATE being cold.
Author:  dstgean [ Mon May 05, 2008 8:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Karl Brogger wrote:
But I HATE being cold.


And you live in MN?

Dan
Author:  mike hensel [ Mon May 05, 2008 7:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Karl,
The FX really responds to the diamond wire tension. I have been using spreader rake and diamond wire tension for power changes.

I know how you like to get all of the gadgets, pick up a Loos Gauge and start working with the tension.

I am running 45-50 mm or 1.75"-2.0" of spreader rake, but i weigh 200+.
You are probably need 65-70mm range, 2.5"-2.75" spreader rake based on your weight.

I have the diamond wire setting at 30 on loos gage now and it was good for me up to about 12-15. I really notice the difference in diamond wire settings. I can be over powered and lifting the hull too much on every puff and if crank on some more diamond wire tension it makes a big difference.

I have cranked the tension on enough before where the boat seemed gutless. Any way try the diamond tension see how that does for you.

Get a Loos gauge and we can compare settings.
Author:  Harry Murphey [ Mon May 05, 2008 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Staying Warm
Karl,

KOKATAT ... Call Jill Nickerson @ Fun in the Sun !!!!

At the Gunpowder Regetta this weekend there must have been 10-12 people in Kokotat Drysuits. I had mine on also as I was the "Pin Boat" ... (a 8' inflatable) the relief zipper was very "Key" after the second beer

congrats on the first sail of the season

Harry
Author:  Karl Brogger [ Mon May 05, 2008 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've been meaning to order up a Loos gauge. I've just been lazy.

The drysuit thing is troubling. I'm built like a spider monkey. Ape like apedages, and no torso. Stick skinny to boot, at 160lbs, and 6' 2". To have one "built" its almost $1200. Ouch. Hypothermia doesn't look so bad. :wink:

Too much crap to buy, not enough account to back it up with. I was offered a pretty decent job the other day. Having your own business has its perks, but it sure is nice getting a check every week.
Author:  Karl Brogger [ Sat May 17, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
mike hensel wrote:
Karl,
The FX really responds to the diamond wire tension. I have been using spreader rake and diamond wire tension for power changes.



Holy Hell you ain't kidding!!!! I hadn't messed with the diamond wires at all. Mine were quite loose, and I cranked the bottom of the flat part to the middle of the fitting on the mast. Night and day. The boat was much calmer, and faster because of it. I haven't measure the rake yet, but there is quite a bit in the spreaders right now. I honestly can't believe what a difference it made. The wind was about 10-12 really steady, and probably a few pushes of wind around 15. It pointed better, didn't pop the hull up as much or as violently. Much faster, much more controlled.
Author:  buzzman2 [ Sun May 18, 2008 7:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Karl your nuts, just like me. If you would have dipped and not in the water that long the wind chill would have crushed you. I get an ice cream headache just thinking about it. I used to hate wet suits till I found one that fits right and in those conditions, you don't even notice what your wearing. Mine fits like a glove and actually helps from getting banged up so much. I've been in low 40 before, it's a very sick, helpless feeling. I don't want to change this thread, I'm all ears on the depowering. :)
Author:  Rojoyinc [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: De-powering for those of us that don't want to die.
OLD topic - but good topic. And people new to depowering (ME) need more info. Though I'm often scolded for resurrecting a old thread... I recently bought a loos gauge. I've never adjusted my wires.
I have a Tiger and a H18SX. Both seem to need to be depowered. I'd have to check again and I believe the mast should be up? I just tested the loos for grins with the mast laying on the supports on the trailer.
I think the Tiger game in around 38 and the H18SX was really loose - I can't recall but under 30. Is there a charge for weight/wind for each of these boats for places to start?

When I race it's often very big wind and I tend to chicken out and just sail for fun off course for fear of flipping. Trying to learn how to depower.


PS I hate wet suits too - they give me bad skin rashes/ITCH behind knees and inside elbows. (unless wetsuit was recently washed).
Dry suits? Do check into the Ocean rodeo. I love mine.
So how do keep the boat upright in big wind and is it not done? (adjusting the wires while sailing?) just curious if that's ever done.
Author:  John Lunn [ Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: De-powering for those of us that don't want to die.
1. Define 'big wind' please. The H18 has huge volume at the front of the hulls, and can take gusts up to 30 knots.... been there. Want war stories about sailing under spin and being hit by a puff?
2. Dry suits are fine, however, if you go over, consider the chances of catching the dry suit on jib blocks or ring-dings or other object.....
and what will happen if the dry suit rips and lets water in? A right sized wet suit with a spray top should see you through Fall sailing.
3. Diamond wire tension is set ashore.... depends on 3 W's - crew Weight, Wind and Waves (or chop). Most folks set them fairly snug, so that at 12" up from the bottom fitting, you can push the diamond wires into the mast and they will touch.

The H18 is a very forgiving boat in that way.
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