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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:40 am 
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Hi everyone,

I currently have some sit-on-top (SOT) kayaks (Wilderness Systems Thresher 155s with rudders) and some sea kayaks (Current Designs Extreme and Storm with rudders). I use the former for fishing and the latter for overnight touring trips and each have their drawbacks; the SOTs are slow (~2.5 mph average) and the sea kayaks (~5 mph average) are dangerous because they are hard to re-enter if capsized.

Would the 2018 Hobie Revolution 16 be the best of both worlds? Stable enough for fishing with the safety of a SOT yet fast enough, and with enough cargo capacity, for long-distance touring? If so would there be any disadvantage to going with the 2018 Adventure Island instead? The outriggers and sail would obviously open up opportunities but I'd want to be in monohull mode a lot of the time and I'm wondering if the Adventure Island in monohull mode has compromises over the Revolution 16 that should push me towards the Revolution 16.

I'm aware that the Adventure Island would come with a weight penalty but beyond that, is it as good or even superior to the Revolution 16 in kayak-only mode? I paddle over the shallows a lot and make a lot of contact with the ground; does the Revolution 16 rudder 'kick up' straight when it contacts the ground or does it twist, causing the boat to inadvertently enter a turn? It looks as though the Adventure Island's rudder would pop up straight, is that right?

Thanks for any feedback,

-Creek Chub


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Welcome CC.
I asked similar questions when the AIv2 was first released in 2015.
https://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/view ... 7&p=250572
I had been using the AIv1 since 2008 and like you mostly in kayak mode. The consensus from those who had used both was that the AIv2 was a better sailing boat whereas the AIv1 was a better kayak. Hobie bulked up the hull and built in the daggerboard on the AIv2 which made it much heavier.
When the time came to upgrade I decided not to go with the new AIv2 but to keep my TI, sell both AIv1’s and get an Adventure (Revo 16) for kayak use.
If you mostly want kayak use an AIv1 might be more suitable?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Sounds like you'd be more happy in a Revo 16, as you seem to have a minimalist approach to your kayaking, something the AI is not, especially if you don't trailer.

By the time you begin to kick the rudder up on the R16, (especially the original "non-sailing" one,) which is a twisty type, your fins will already be telling you it's shallow and will probably have your paddle in hand. If you want to sail, get the hobie sail kit. If you want more stability, get the hobie floaty kit; they both travel A LOT smaller than an AI. If you want stability when stationary or drifting, get the AI1 dagger which doubles as a skeg (aka roll dampener.) Get all that and you're still ahead of the AI2 by a couple grand with a lot less to lug around. All that and the Revo gives away just a little in hull and topside storage.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Thanks for the replies folks,

It sounds as though the Revolution 16 would be a good replacement for both my sea kayaks and my fishing kayaks, the Revolution 16 offering the safety of a sit-on-top and close to the speed of a sea kayak. Is that right? And it sounds as though the Adventure Island, which would be great for multi-day trips in big waters, just wouldn't fit my needs when I need a single-hull for grab and go fishing on the local creeks. And I do have a Kayaksailor kit for sail assist on multi-day adventures, so I have the sailing sort of covered no matter what kayak I'm in.

I'm still confused about the rudder options on the Revolution 16. I frequently do long trips in shallow, muddy water and my rudder is always hitting the bottom. On my current kayaks the rudder just kicks up a bit when it strikes bottom and even when half-way deployed it still provides all the services that a rudder should. Does the Revolution 16 rudder do that or does it need to be fully deployed or not deployed at all? Can it be half deployed and still provide service? If not, could I just outfit the Revolution with a vertical-stow sailing rudder and have it function like the rudders on my current kayaks?

Thanks again,

-Creek Chub


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Location: South Florida
I had a CD Extreme for years...great sea kayak. The AI 2 (the 2015 AI and later) is more sailing vessel. On the other hand, I think an AI (2011-2014) would fit your purposes. The rudder kicks up to a trailing position if it is shallow. I've never used or seen a Revolution 16, so I cannot comment on that.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:24 pm 
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d#$dsa wrote:
I'm still confused about the rudder options on the Revolution 16. I frequently do long trips in shallow, muddy water and my rudder is always hitting the bottom. On my current kayaks the rudder just kicks up a bit when it strikes bottom and even when half-way deployed it still provides all the services that a rudder should. Does the Revolution 16 rudder do that or does it need to be fully deployed or not deployed at all? Can it be half deployed and still provide service? If not, could I just outfit the Revolution with a vertical-stow sailing rudder and have it function like the rudders on my current kayaks?

Thanks again,

-Creek Chub


I'm curious as to the sail performance of the kayaksailer rig compared to the hobie sail. I believe it has a more rigid mast which means better performance and also likely to dump you in a gust if you're not on top of it.

I fish shallows mostly by standing and poling. The rudder is as you can imagine; counter-productive unless completely deployed. When retracted, standing in the mirage well, there is no tracking, so I've taken to poling backwards where the prominent bow entry affords better tracking as a makeshift keel. I'm in the process of rectifying the problem, either with an AI or other aftermarket straight up-down rudder assembly. The newer AI rudder is not a simple swap on a twist and stow stern.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
CC,
I’m not sure what speeds you expect but comfortable pedaling I can average 7-8km/h and paddling 6-7km/h in my Adventure.
You should be able to fit the vertical rudder to a Revo 16 by swapping gudgeons which are bolted on, but as Keith said the twist-n-stow rudder can be used in shallow water by not cleating it down.
Adding a couple of small skegs to the hull eliminates the need to use the rudder when paddling:
https://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/view ... 11&t=60698


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:01 am 
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with the revo 16 by the time you get to water too shallow for the rudder, you are too shallow for pedals. I have run the twist and stow rudders up on to beaches many times forgetting to raise them without damage, I have the larger rudder option. I have been paddling my revo a lot lately and with a few mods actually prefer that to pedalling. I use the twin skeg mods that stringy posted (Thanks stringy) and that is going strong and works well. I paddle rudder up. The problem with rudders on pedal craft is they are not really functional in paddle mode as they are hand operated. They can be lowered as a trailing skeg but you loose manoeuvrability

The hobie daggerboard/skeg I find too big for pure kayak mode when not required for sailing, so I have made up my own shorter version. This helps with stability, tracking and improved manouverability. You can deploy when required and pull it when you dont (no need for extra drag when not required). I also add some thigh straps made up from some cam straps for paddling this helps both bracing and the ability "edge" to a degree. You do need to learn proper paddle strokes if you want to paddle a long boat like this without a rudder.

Trimming the boat by adding ballast to the nose (water container and even fill drive plug when paddling) keeps the nose down and substantially helps performance and handling. Most paddle boats are arse down nose up due to loading and reclined seating, this increases drag

The AI is great for its intended purpose but unweildy to set up, so for just punting around most owners would have a second kayak rather than use mono hull.

On flat water with no wind or tide and not heavily loaded. paddling i max out around 9km/h, fast cruise 7.5-8km/h, easy cruise 6.5-7.5km/h. Pedalling (with turbo fins) max out just over 10 km/h, fast cruise similar to paddle. But for some reason my natural cruise rate is lower than when I paddle. Heading into a strong wind pedalling win hands down. The revo being low in the water is not overly wind affected.

The mirage seat does make a difference over the old adventure seat ( i have both) not only in comfort but in boat control.

Being able to paddle or pedal extends your range if your arms or legs get tired.

It is the closest hybrid boat around and massively underrated. Its the one hobie that feels like a true kayak, if you are coming from being in a sea kayak.


Last edited by WAVERIDER on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:09 am 
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Further to the issue of the rudder hitting bottom, even the larger rudder option is not as deep as a typical sea kayak rudder. . It needs to cleated fully down otherwise it tries to twist and lift when turing in one direction. If it proves an issue (and I dont think it will), it is possible to just cut the tip off the larger one to make it shallower without a huge loss in affectiveness


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:59 am 
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Thanks again for all your thoughts,

I think that I'll get a Revolution 16. It's too bad though. It SEEMS as though the Adventure Island, if one were to leave everything at home but the main hull, would be almost as good in kayak-mode as a Revolution 16 but it sounds as though there are just too many compromises.

-Creek Chub


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:31 pm 
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The only way to know for sure is to demo both models. If your dealer is any good that shouldn’t be too difficult. You may find the AIv2 hull only paddles well enough.
You’ve dismissed the AIv1? The only difference between that hull and the Adventure is the slight extra weight of the X-bars and mast fittings.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:58 pm 
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d#$dsa wrote:
I'm still confused about the rudder options on the Revolution 16. I frequently do long trips in shallow, muddy water and my rudder is always hitting the bottom. On my current kayaks the rudder just kicks up a bit when it strikes bottom and even when half-way deployed it still provides all the services that a rudder should. Does the Revolution 16 rudder do that or does it need to be fully deployed or not deployed at all? Can it be half deployed and still provide service? If not, could I just outfit the Revolution with a vertical-stow sailing rudder and have it function like the rudders on my current kayaks?

Thanks again,

-Creek Chub


The Revo 16 looks to have a removeable gudgeon for the twist and stow rudder which means the AI rudder May be a direct bolt-on.

Secondly, the idea of trimming a twist and stow sailing rudder is brilliant. Perhaps Waverider can share just how much rudder is necessary below the water line to still give decent performance.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:31 am 
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Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:
d#$dsa wrote:
I'm still confused about the rudder options on the Revolution 16. I frequently do long trips in shallow, muddy water and my rudder is always hitting the bottom. On my current kayaks the rudder just kicks up a bit when it strikes bottom and even when half-way deployed it still provides all the services that a rudder should. Does the Revolution 16 rudder do that or does it need to be fully deployed or not deployed at all? Can it be half deployed and still provide service? If not, could I just outfit the Revolution with a vertical-stow sailing rudder and have it function like the rudders on my current kayaks?

Thanks again,

-Creek Chub


The Revo 16 looks to have a removeable gudgeon for the twist and stow rudder which means the AI rudder May be a direct bolt-on.

Secondly, the idea of trimming a twist and stow sailing rudder is brilliant. Perhaps Waverider can share just how much rudder is necessary below the water line to still give decent performance.


I haven't trimmed mine, but there is a post on here somewhere about it I think from Roadrunner. The only downside I guess is in rough conditions less depth increases odds of it lifting out of the water. Which is the reason sea kayaks have deeper rudders. So only do it if you find it necessary. I paddle with it up, and if its that shallow you can't pedal anyway, so may be a moot point.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:58 am 
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d#$dsa wrote:
I currently have some sit-on-top (SOT) kayaks (Wilderness Systems Thresher 155s with rudders) and some sea kayaks (Current Designs Extreme and Storm with rudders). I use the former for fishing and the latter for overnight touring trips and each have their drawbacks; the SOTs are slow (~2.5 mph average) and the sea kayaks (~5 mph average) are dangerous because they are hard to re-enter if capsized.

Would the 2018 Hobie Revolution 16 be the best of both worlds? Stable enough for fishing with the safety of a SOT yet fast enough, and with enough cargo capacity, for long-distance touring?

I have a 2014 Adventure Island which I use primarily for kayaking: I've done over 1,000 miles of paddling and pedaling with it (probably about 40%/60%). I would say the answer to your question is basically yes. A sleek sea kayak is more efficient for paddling, but overall an Island/Revo 16 is hard to beat on net for speed and distance. I upgraded from a standard 14 ft sea kayak, and it just feels much easier to move the Hobie. Being able to go back-and-forth from pedaling to paddling really helps one avoid fatigue. And you can't beat using the power of your legs over arms when you need to go fast or cover distance, or face a stiff-headwind.

I've done a few trips where I will paddle about 25 miles in a day, camp overnight on an island, and come back home the next day. The boat is perfect for that. Lots of room for gear, versatility for long trips. I can pedal faster than most "normal" boats can paddle for sure.

Yes, safety is a big plus for me on a SOT. Reentry is much easier, even shifting your center of gravity by hanging your legs over the sides comes in handy at times. I find there are more places I can enter/exit the boat thanks to its stability. Circumstances like getting out to pull-over beaver dams are much easier.

d#$dsa wrote:
If so would there be any disadvantage to going with the 2018 Adventure Island instead? The outriggers and sail would obviously open up opportunities but I'd want to be in monohull mode a lot of the time and I'm wondering if the Adventure Island in monohull mode has compromises over the Revolution 16 that should push me towards the Revolution 16.

I'm aware that the Adventure Island would come with a weight penalty but beyond that, is it as good or even superior to the Revolution 16 in kayak-only mode?

While I mostly do kayak-mode, I do love converting to the sail-mode and sailing. It really is fun. The AI-1 was so no-compromise in that sense.

I actually originally had a 2009 AI and the well-cracked in 2015. I was going to replace it with a 2015 AI-2. I went to the store and took a look, and tried car-topping it. Man that thing is much bigger. I thought the added size was a problem for my needs. I was very disappointed because I decided to give up the Vantage seat and instead stick with a 2014 (AI-1) hull. I think the AI-2 is a better sailing vessel than the AI-1, but for all-around versitiliy, the AI-1 was better.

If I had to buy a new boat now, I would get the Revo-16, and use the sail kit and sidekicks for a sail. Not the same as an AI-2 for sailing, but a good compromise when kayaking is goal #1. You may want to consider buying a used AI-1 though, too.

d#$dsa wrote:
I paddle over the shallows a lot and make a lot of contact with the ground; does the Revolution 16 rudder 'kick up' straight when it contacts the ground or does it twist, causing the boat to inadvertently enter a turn? It looks as though the Adventure Island's rudder would pop up straight, is that right?

My 2009 hull had a twist-rudder (much preferred), my new one has the straight-up rudder. I do a lot of shallows, and honestly they both kick-up about the same when hitting bottom. The twist works the same in that regard: I never noticed the boat turning when it came up.


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