New Hobie Revolution 13 unstable???

I have had Outbacks for 7 years now. It's an extremely stable boat, even in poor water conditions. Last year I demo'd a Revolution 13 and liked that it was faster and easier to paddle (Outback is a little too wide for serious paddling, and I don't fish). And even if it seemed slightly less stable, the demo I took on lake waters felt comfortable enough as I put it through the paces. I decided to wait for the 2015 upgrades.

Well, I just picked-up my new 2015 Revolution 13 the other day and, due to lingering cold water temps and winds here in Nebraska, decided to test the new boat in a large local indoor pool just for fun.

Before the first float I replaced the standard rudder with a sail rudder. I also set the new seat to its lowest back position and highest front position. I then invited my Hobie owner friend to take the first sail. He gets 5 feet and rolls over. He gets in it again, comments that it seems squirrily, and again rolls over.

I get in it. I agree. I don't go over, but nearly every turn feels tippy. I adjust the seat so that both back and front are in their lowest positions. Yak feels better, but not by much. I notice the rudder turns left much sharper than right, so maybe this is an adjustment problem. I also notice that the boat will sometimes stay flat in a hard turn, and sometimes lean into the turn a bit. That's okay to some degree, but bring the rudder back to straight and this boat suddenly leans opposite the turn — enough to nearly dump a person. The hull looks great visually. No deformations can be seen.

My friend is tall but lean. I'm tall and 270 pounds. We are both experienced Hobie kayakers. It feels as if the center of gravity is way too high, despite the lower seat position. What the heck is going on here?

I'm switching out the sail rudder back to the standard rudder and will do another float this next week. The rudder seemed to lock down in place properly, at least from the cockpit view, but I intend to have another set of eyes on the rudder's lockdown position next time to be sure it's in its proper place.

Unfortunately, as it stands now, I have no confidence in this boat in pool water, let alone in waves and wind.

1. Does anyone else here (perhaps a tall person) think the 2015 Revolution 13 is unstable?

2. Does anyone have a sail rudder on their 2015 Rev 13, and are they happy with it?

_________________
Absolute kayaking corrupts absolutely.

I recently took delivery of a Revolution 16. The first time I had it on the water, it seemed a bit tippy to me too at first. I'm 6'2" and 240 lbs. My only other experience was a rental version a couple of years ago that I don't remember feeling that way about but it's been long enough, I don't remember exactly which boat it was. I spent about two hours on my boat and it got better as I got more comfortable with it. It's not an Outback by any stretch but I think it's going to be fine for what I bought it for.

When I went from a Sport (which is like a Jr Outback) to a Revo11, I flipped it offshore and lost some gear. I had never felt that tippy in the Sport in the same weather conditions. It took about another month to get my confidence back with the Revo11.
I had an Outback for a year, and replaced with with a 2015 Revo13, and again I felt the definite difference in stability, but I knew I would eventually get over it and master my craft. Having done 2 offshore trips and one bay trip I feel my confidence growing. I think that's all there is to it really. If you are that used to an Outback, switching to a Revo is a bit of a shock to the system and you will feel uncomfortable with every wave or boat wake that approaches your yak sideways or from behind. It will get better with time.

For reference, I'm smaller than you (5' 8" 200lbs) and have the sailing rudder on both my 2012 Revo11 and 2015 Revo13. I am happy with the sailing rudder, and I am used to it leaning the boat in a hard turn, tis only natural.

Question for those with 2015's. Are the kayaks more prone to tipping over than the older models without the Vantage seating? Obviously comparison needs to be with the same models.

_________________
Mark
Tandem Island- 2013
2 - Sports - 2014

When I was a kid (this would have been 40 years ago!) my parents bought us a wood and canvas kayak. It felt incredibly tippy when you sat in it, like it was about to turn right over in an instant, so when you got into it you would sit there with your backside twitching from left to right trying to compensate for what felt like an inevitable and immediate tendency to capsize...

...thing is, it wasn't tippy, it just felt like it was but actually it was perfectly stable really and we had hours of fun in it for very little outlay.

So my point is, is it the case that your boat actually IS tippy? Or does it just FEEL tippy? You have tried the 'float' test. How about also trying the 'capsize' test to see how far you have to go to get it to actually turn over?

Stability should be just the same as older models with the seat at the lowest position. That was the goal... keep the initial stability the same. It is a lot less stable than the Outback and after a winter of hibernation... I think you just need a little time in the boat.

Be sure the rudder is cleated / locked down too. That can effect steering to the right which causes the rudder to start coming up. Would then possibly also cause the roll you felt?

Adjust the rudder if you need to get it centered.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I understand the "getting used to the boat" part. I had to work at my paddling skills to get used to the Outback's non-existant tracking when the rudder is up. And now I do quite a bit of rudder-up paddling with few problems.

BUT this Revo stability problem is during the pedaling phase. I'm not holding an oar that I can suddenly effect a brace in this situation — so I'm thinking paddling skills don't enter into this particular problem.

For those of you who did overcome this, are you still aware you are shifting your body weight, or does this come naturally? And how is that shifting being done …shifting in the seat? Or leaning the upper body?

_________________
Absolute kayaking corrupts absolutely.

Like a lot of things, it becomes natural. A little time on the water an it will all go away. You are tall and heavy though... That equates to a higher center of gravity that is more unstable.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

"Be sure the rudder is cleated / locked down too."

That's one of the things I want to evaluate the next time I'm in the pool — that when cleated the rudder is vertical and tight with the keel. I did cleat the rudder as usual — but being a new boat, it can be hard to verify if the rudder's properly down at speed unless you have eyes on the rudder other than from the cockpit. So that is one thing I'm hoping to get confirmation on.

_________________
Absolute kayaking corrupts absolutely.

I think so, yes I'm aware, but it is a reactionary motion.
When I was in the Outback, I could have (and actually I have) fallen asleep and not fallen out.
However in the Revolutions (both 11 & 13) I am more keenly aware of my balance and it requires a bit more alertness on my part. Two examples:
1. When I hooked up with a large shark 3 weeks ago, I was bracing myself very carefully in the Revo13. I did not want to fall in if the line snapped and caused me to get unbalanced. There may have been some upper-body wiggling around, but I managed okay until he popped the 40# leader (must have been a big boy )
2. When I'm coming back to the beach and the waves are hitting the stern of the kayak, it gets very tippy! I lean back as far as I can to ensure the bow doesn't pitch down and I pull up rudder and fins and paddle like a madman. This is one of the times that requires a lot of attention as you're usually pretty tired coming in from offshore and the waves can be tricky.

You said you don't fish, so perhaps #1 isn't applicable. If you pedal lakes, then maybe #2 isn't applicable either. But my point is, it is possible to adapt to the balancing act. You're a big guy though, so your experience may vary.

Not a 2015 Revo 13, but as according to Matt it shouldn't matter if Vantage seat is in lowest position. I've ridden thru thunderstorms in a Revo 13, no problem. Very sea worthy kayak. But one does have to be aware of their center of gravity at all times, otherwise when least expected you will lean the wrong way and dump faster than you can react. Everything should always be secured, otherwise you can count on it being lost at some point, no excuse but yourself for losing items. Also use a sailing rudder, if you turn sharply with some speed and don't counter act with weight distribution, you can easily dump the kayak.

_________________
Mark
Tandem Island- 2013
2 - Sports - 2014

I'm pretty sure I had my rudder locked fully down but I'll definitely double check that next time. So far, I've noted a definite roll coupling with rudder application. Minor course corrections aren't that noticeable but it's definitely there when I go harder over and it's more pronounced to the right than to the left. I think it's pretty much normal. Most boats will show a rolling moment with rudder application.

Referring to someone else's question about being aware of leaning or shifting their weight to balance the boat, I've found that I just have to properly center myself in the seat. It's wide enough that if I go all the way over, one way or the other, then the boat sits to that side nicely. All I do is move over until it sits level without any other acrobatics from me and it seems good to go after that.

Yes, I experienced a roll into some of the turns. That roll was different than the Outback (which doesn't roll at all), but it was not that bad. The disconcerning part was a strong roll the OTHER WAY when centering the rudder to come out of the turn. THAT opposite tilt was quick, strong, and had an awful "we're going over" feeling. That's when I started to suspect a too-high center of gravity.

_________________
Absolute kayaking corrupts absolutely.

What you lose in primary stability on the Revolution 13, you gain in secondary stability over the Outback. I would much rather be in a Revo 13 on the open ocean for safety than an Outback. But of course it's more wise to avoid adverse conditions for either kayak.
Nothing against the Outback, but if I desire more space and primary stability, I'm going to go with an AI/TI. In fact, really in my opinion I would take the AI/TI period over either kayak, even in non amas mode.
The only time I take out the Revo 13 is when I am launching or landing in a heavy surf and can expect to roll on occasion. Not that an AI/TI wouldn't suffice in adventure mode, just that you don't want to risk the damage to them thru a nose bury. Rolling the kayak in heavy surf does take it's toll.

_________________
Mark
Tandem Island- 2013
2 - Sports - 2014

They are fine boats but the expense, and especially the weight, of the AI & TI's keep them off my buy list (I especially like to sail the AI's). I paddle Nebraskan waters, some with all sorts of just-underwater snags and such (I tend to like narrow feeder streams), so weight and length play fairly important roles. I also need to be able to launch where there are no boat ramps and occasionally portage past downed trees in remote areas.

I'm a little surprised by your comment regarding the Outback's suitability in big wave water. It's certainly not ocean surf, but I had the Outback on the Michigan shores of Lake Michigan a few years ago. One day the wind kicked-up 3-foot waves. Unfortunately that was the day I had to make my way to a harbor 3 miles away to avoid having to lift the Outback up 150 feet of sand dune stairs. Hugging the beach shore, the boat was surprisingly well behaved, even as I was broad-sided by occasionally breaking 4-footers (I knew they were 4-footers cuz they completely blocked my view of the horizon before they hit). I kept expecting to go over, but each time the yak recovered nicely. That boat inspired confidence.

I also run with groups of kayakers, some being newbies that occasionally take a dump in their little recreational kayaks, and have a hard time getting back in. With the Outback I worry little about getting dumped myself as I assist these newbies back into their boats. Not sure if I would continue that sort of thing in the Revo 13 if I'm constantly having to worry about balance.

I talked with my dealer today. I could swap out the new Revo 13 for an in-store 2015 Outback if I act quickly. I love the speed and grace the Revo promises, but I'm realizing that I'm gonna miss the battleship stability my old Outback offered. Damn. What to do?

_________________
Absolute kayaking corrupts absolutely.