Cassettte Modification, tracking issues, drag anchor

So I have some time under my belt with my 2014 outback. roughly 20 hours on a calm lake, and about double that on the typical Indiana River.

While I am not regretting my purchase, I am struggling with a few things that NEED to bee addressed. but first lets talk about what I think might be the cause of the issues. Everything works great when I am on calm water, and deep water.... and for that reason I still think I made the right decision because this thing is going to allow me to do things I wouldn't even consider in a different kayak.

However the rivers I am fishing, somewhat often now as I live REALLY close to one, are not very deep. the "deep" holes we are fishing are most of the time not even a full paddle deep, and most of the way we are paddling in depths of around 3 feet and fishing those deeper holes. BUT, about every few hundred yards, often much more, sometimes less, we hit areas where we bottom out. this past 12 hour float I did on the west fork of the whitewater river from Cambridge City to Connersville Indiana (if you want to good earth it to see what I am fishing) I had to get out because it got to shallow at least 20-30 times and it easily could have been more. its an 18 mile float by car. for that reason I am no longer going to take the drive on the river as a default unless I have floated it before and know I can get some use out of it. and for that reason I cant really use the rudder easily. When I locked the rudder down it was OK as long as my momentum was still moving forward, but couple that with the current and you fly past where you want to fish, or if you slow down the rudder I believe was causing the back end to swing around. then it would only be in the water for such a short period I would forget about it, and put some serious stress on the cable. so I stopped locking it down.... it doesn't work really well when not locking it down. and quite honestly you cant use it long enough to be worthwhile if your trying to fish.

with 5 miles left on the float the person who was taking me on this trip realized how far away we were and what time he had to pick up his kids, so we decided no more fishing and we were going to paddle at a moderate pace and not stop for anything so we could get out in time. we did what normally takes 4 hours or more in 2. Paddling at a leisurely pace isn't horrible if your not trying to fish, but trying to keep up with an ultralight skinny 10 foot sit inside was exhausting. Not only was it hard to paddle (my wife also struggled paddling this boat PERIOD) but I found myself FIGHTING to keep the boat going the right way. It just flat out does not track worth a damn w/out a rudder in the water. I probably spent 1/3 of my energy correcting tracking issues. now I was able to use the rudder for about half of this stretch and it helped, but given the current and the bends and the shallow spots it was a lot of effort, and I really don't want to keep "dealing" with it.

So there are two things I want to discuss trying. The first is a fold away rudder built into a cassette. My rough idea would be a half oval shaped "rudder" that the forwar portion is mounted on a hinge and spring loaded downward into the water by about 4 inch's. As a part of this mod I would put a stainless locking pin in (mine is already broke due to scooting over rocks putting ALOT of weight on just that)...... I would try and fill a large amount of the gaps around the cassette with an epoxy, leaving the alignment slots open for water to drain back out. ( I had water rushing into the drive area while padding hard at the end which had to be creating ALOT of drag)... I would also fill the cassette with foam to increase its strength. I am not so worried about a watertight seal but making it smoother and tighter at the bottom would lessen the drag. I would also probably put some tape over it at the bottom on the edges to help with that goal, the tape may not last forever, but has to help some. The idea with this is that w/out using my rear rudder this will help the yak glide in the pointed direction a bit better while paddling, and while not paddling it will create some resistance for the front of the boat helping keep that pointed the direction I need it pointed to fish forward and towards the banks. I would really like to discuss how to accomplish this, and if it something that might work.

The second mod is a drag anchor. While I would like to add a trolly in the future I just don't think this is the right application here. I his places that I would need to pull it in it in so often and so fast I wouldn't want to be dicking with running it back up and pulling it back in. So I want to use an 8 inch section of concrete filled 2'' iron pipe and drag it behind or buy a 4 pound kayak anchor and weld the "ears" shut so it drags and doesn't grab).... this is what I have come up with so far. (unfortunately I already spend 36 dollars on what I thought would be another option that I have been told will not work)...

I will use this mounting plate, http://www.yakattack.us/AAP_1018_p/aap-1018.htm with this item mounted to the non folding side of the rudder http://www.anchorwizard.com/kayak-anchor-chute/ the anchor would be on 550 cord though the chute through a few pad eyes and end at the end of a retractable dog leash. If needed I could run the line through tubing through the pad eyes. I would mount one of those line ties like I have to hold the rudder down. (or another quick cleat type product that you recommend as I don't know what they are called). the anchor chute would keep the anchor out of the water and the mounting plate will allow me to both use it AND keep the rudder stow functional. when I hit the deep water I can just let as much line out as it takes to slow the boat down and keep it straight and when I come to the shallow water all I have to do is release it from its hold and pull the line in which will be gathered up by the leash holder. lock it in and paddle on.

I think these two mods will take care of my biggest two issues, tracking w/out a rudder, and position while fishing.

I know some will think that its kayak fishing and these things just happen, but I have fished with dirt cheap sit insides and pretty decent sit on tops and none of them had the paddling/tracking issues I did. Once I put the rudder down it was somewhat more comparable other than the amount of effort required to paddle. I know this isn't the first choice of a boat for river fishing, esp shallow river fishing, but its the best option for the reservoir fishing I do, so I need to find a way to make it work.

For what its worth I have been having a TON of success, and my next step is to buy a bow and add AMAS because I can find a TON of carp pretty much anywhere I want to go, and paddling a river bowfishing sounds like a heck of a lot of fun.

And I have been having pretty good success. Here is my PB small mouth. over 3 pounds for sure. Caught on a called cast, in 2 feet of murky muddy bottom slower moving water with a crappie ice fishing rod, micro spincast reel, 4 pound test, 1/8th oz weed weezle and gulp minnow around a log.

Big post!

Unfortunately I do not use my kayaks in anything like the same conditions as you.

Did you research these forums before/after buying your kayak ? - there's a load of good information and advice on them.

I can sympathise with the issue about tracking in the Outback - w/o the rudder down it doesn't do very well on that score compared with some of the other Hobies.

I can also sympathise about the paddling ability of the Outback - lots of people have commented that it is not the best boat to paddle and that is my experience too - too wide and doesn't track well. The Adventure does and the Revos might (I haven't tried them) do much better as paddle boats.

I wonder why you went for the Outback in the first place - you don't look like a particularly big fella so I guess you don't need all the extra buoyancy of that particular hull?!

As to using the pedals in shallow water - the technique is to push one foot all the way forwards (so that the fins are up close to the hull) and then do partial strokes - of the order of only a quarter of the normal stroke - backwards and forwards with that one foot always forwards. In this way the fins flap up and down just below the hull and never reach the vertically downwards position so the depth that is required is far less than if you were doing a full pedal stroke. This technique is remarkably effective at moving the boat forwards but I confess that if you are having problems with your rudder blade bottoming out then the water you are in really is pretty shallow and the technique might not be practical in which case the only option is to pull the drive and paddle (not even a motor - unless it is a jet motor - is going to help much in these circumstances).

To stop the rudder blade bottoming out you could try a different shaped blade - a less deep but longer blade would probably work just fine and it wouldn't have to be anything fancy just a piece of ply or W.H.Y. should suffice for a field test if not as a long term solution. I think the rudder on the Pro Angler models might be worth a look too (I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how it is configured but it is different so I think might be worth you looking) - these boats are even bigger/more floaty than the Outback (and I wonder how they are to paddle - which is clearly going to be something that you will be interested in knowing) but it just might be that the rudder/standup capabilities would suit you.

I think the idea of a drag anchor is a good one - in the days of sailing barges and the like these were used extensively, for very similar reasons, in the marshland areas of the south east UK where the sailing term is a 'drudge' I believe. I have found that many conventional big boat/sailing tools and techniques translate directly onto Hobie kayaks and I am sure the use of a drudge has its place on kayaks just as it has on larger vessels.

Various amas are available from Hobie and 3rd party. If you are going to stand up and fish/shoot arrows then the extra deck area of the Outback/PA vs a Revo/Adventure might be a bonus.

As to your fish - looks like a good one - here in NZ we don't call ones that size Bass or fish: we call them bait

Hope this helps.

I bought the outback because I sold a backhoe and had the money for a kayak. I had looked into hobies for a LONG LONG time a few years ago and they were just out of price. but after I had the money from the backhoe (3 pt attachment) I started looking on craigslist and found this for 1400. Hobies are Very very hard to find used when you are landlocked. so buying last years model for 1k cheaper I jumped on it. When I did review searches and everything there was NOBODY who said I would be having the issues paddling that I am having now.

What I think would work the best would be the hold down cable being bungee type thing that would hold it down, but allow it to come up when I bottom out.


Your shallow water flapping technique doesn't work in my case. when I say it gets shallow I mean we are getting OUT of the boats and dragging them to where its deep enough for them to float again.

It sounds like not many boats are going to float in the kind of depth of water you are talking about though ones without anything protruding below the hull will have the best chance and clearly the mirage drive kayaks do have something protruding: the fins and the rudder...

As to the idea of bungeeing the rudder so that it will flip up - I believe that all the Hobie mirage drive kayaks are equipped in this way, the idea being that the rudder will not break off if it comes into contact with something stationary in the water BUT the amount of force that it takes to lift the rudder in this way is, in my experience, not inconsiderable. in other words, unless you really whack the rudder into something hard and immovable it probably isn't going to deflect much - certainly I have found that the rudder doesn't just lift up out of the way when I forget to raise it and run it into the beach when coming ashore... so unless you can find a way of reducing the amount of pressure required to release the rudder upwards it probably isn't going to lift as you would like it to do if it comes into contact with what looks like a fairly soft river bottom (judging by what I can see in your photos).

W.R.T. the paddling performance of the Outback vs some of the other Hobie kayaks - it isn't hard to find various opinions on the matter by searching these forums with the search terms "outback" and "paddling". I have just done so and got 17 pages of posts as hits (fewer threads) - a quick trawl through these turned up 3 on the first two pages that I thought were relevant:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=54875&hilit=outback+paddling
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=54325&hilit=outback+paddling
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=54325&p=253284&hilit=outback+paddling#p253284
(you will have to scroll down through these threads to get to the pertinent comments in various posts on the threads)
I am sure that a detailed trawl through the search results will turn up many more opinions; some for, some against.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that these are just various people's opinions and opinions are not facts but just impressions - one person's meat is another person's poison and all that. The overriding opinion that I find on these forums (and nobody is claiming that they are the most representative/impartial source of information about Hobie kayaks but there is an awful lot of collective experience on here, most of it freely and generously given and without any censorship from Hobie that I know of - something that I respect them for enormously!) is that the Hobie Mirage Drive system is a brilliant system for propelling a recreational kayak and especially one that is being used for fishing. But of course every product has some limitations - there is no such thing as 'perfect' - and one of the obvious limitations of the Mirage Drive system is that to be used to its full potential it does need enough clearance under the boat for the fins to be able to describe their full arc.

Before buying my first kayak I did exactly what it sounds like you have done: I ummed and ahhed for ages (at that time there was next to no information available to help my decision by way of online reviews of the boats) before finally taking the plunge on a discounted outback (old model - very old by today's standard!) without having ever been in one. What I found was that I could immediately travel much, much further and faster than I ever could have done in a paddle kayak and I had my hands free for fishing allowing me to move and cast at the same time which is my preferred style of fishing... and 6 or 7 boats later the rest, as they say, is history. But as I originally stated I do not have the issue of wanting to use my boat in consistently shallow water - I only occasionally have to negotiate a sandbar, rock or shallow beach approach where I play.

Either way, one thing you can be assured of is that if your hull and drive is well cared for and watertight you should be able to command a high price for it at resale whenever that time comes, whether you are going back to a paddle or swapping to a different Hobie there's always going to be someone who sees the same opportunity as you did.

If this is capable of being shortened this would be ideal for putting into the cassette

http://topkayaker.com/index.php?main_pa ... ts_id=1610

Here's my opinion:

1. Mirage Drive kayaks are terrific for fishing in deep water such as an ocean, lake, or consistently deep river. But they aren't appropriate for use in rivers with shallow spots, particularly if there is much current. If you use a Mirage Drive in a river with shallow areas, you are going to hit the fins on the bottom or some other obstacle, and you are going to bend the shafts and/or break the drive, probably pretty quickly, which will be an expensive mistake. The same is the case with rudders. If you use a rudder in a shallow river, you're going to damage the rudder or its mount and steering mechanism. My recommendation is, don't use a Mirage Drive or a rudder in a river, particularly a river with any swift water, unless the river is reliably and consistently 3-4 feet deep. And watch carefully for shallow areas, and pull up the Mirage Drive and rudder well before you come close to those areas or the shore.

2. Some kayaks track in a straight line very well, and they turn slowly. It may take a number of sweep strokes on one side to turn them 90 degrees or 180 degrees. These kayaks have straight keels with little or no rocker. Most sea kayaks and many fishing kayaks are in this category. Other kayaks are designed to be somewhat maneuverable or highly maneuverable. It may be possible to turn them 180 degrees with one sweep stroke. Some fishing kayaks and all whitewater kayaks are in this category. However, with a little practice you can keep even the most maneuverable whitewater kayak moving precisely in a straight line. You need to learn to make subtle corrections with each paddle stroke, by stroking a little harder on one side or by adding a bit of a sweep stroke, to keep the kayak moving in a straight line. With practice and experience, this will become second nature. So don't use your rudder on rivers, and learn to use your paddle effectively.

I have over 30 years of whitewater kayaking experience. I love fishing in lakes and the ocean in my 13' Revolution. But I don't use my Revolution on rivers. I use a paddle kayak on rivers, either my 13' Ocean Kayak Trident, or a whitewater kayak.

This is the goal.... if you read above my default is to no longer even take the mirage drive.... there really isn't much need for anything more than casual propulsion because the river does a lot of the work. most of my hard paddling is to stay over a good fishing spot. I am just trying to find a way that if I HAVE to paddle hard like we did in the situation we found ourselves in I can do it w/out having to spend as much energy correcting things. that's the idea for the retractable skeg.

Indy, I had an Outback for almost 2 years and I had a Sport a few years before that (Sport is the same general shape as the outback but under 10ft long); I agree that it sucks to paddle. Your retractable skeg sounds like a cool idea.
What kind of paddle do you have by the way? The stock paddle that comes with the Hobie is ok for limited usage, but maybe a longer paddle or different blade style would be more efficient? maybe someone with more paddling experience can chime in on this?