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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:30 pm 
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The dealer put the fairlead for the furler on the right and I want it on the left. Is it better to pull it out and move it, or leave it unused where it is and buy an extra and put that on the left. Same question for the padeye that is part of the furling setup.

If it's best to leave it where it is and get a new one, will Hobie sell a replacement and where is the appropriate catalog.

One review online says the attachments for the fairlead are too short, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nj1dvw40A. Has that been fixed, and, if not, can anyone recommend the exact type, length and diameter of attachment hardware to buy. Thanks.

Steve


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:40 pm 
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if you don't think you would EVER use it on the right, I would just move it and plug the holes with screws. I would probably just leave the padeye though since they can be had cheap and you can always use somewhere else to clip a leash etc...

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2015 AI2- Hibiscus- should probably sell...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:36 am 
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We are longtime kayak sailers on Hobie kayaks, actually every Hobie we have ever bought we included the sail kit with the purchase and have literally never taken one out without the sail kit strapped to the side of the boat. Then we got a TI which pushes all our buttons (we mostly go offshore anymore), so we kind of stopped using our smaller kayaks and just weren't using them anymore so we sold the smaller ones a couple years back.
The Hobie furler wasn't available until a couple years ago, prior to that most of us built our own simple single line furlers using about two bucks worth of PVC pipe.
The reason I'm mentioning all this is you might have a third option for furling the sail available that I haven't heard anyone talk about or discuss in a very long time (many years now).
On the PVC furlers we used very light 1/8" line that just coiled up around a 6 inch long piece of PVC pipe. On our boats we always ran the furling line right up the center of the hull (between the mirage pedals. Pretty much every Hobie mirage kayak has a twist and stow hatch right in front of the seat. They all have the little flip up handle that you flip up and twist to open the hatch. What we would do when wanting to use the sail kit is remove the sail from the side of the boat (where it was held on by the paddle bungy. Drop the sail into the hole, before hooking up the clew line grab the furling line and spin the sail (with the sail still wrapped and lashed around the mast) by pulling on the furling line until you only have about one turn left on the spool, (the furling line runs straight back between the two pedal of the mirage drive (out of the way)). Then flip up the center twist and stow handle, wrap the line around the handle 1/2 turn then jam the handle back down (this pinches and locks the furling line down. Now you can reach up, untie the sail wrap line and hook up the clew line then pull it tight and cleat it. You are now ready to sail.

All the old Hobie sail kits came with a big black bungy to hold the sail down, we would always cut them off and replace them with the pvc furler (with the furler you don't need the bungy anymore, it's just in the way). To unfurl the sail you simply lift the hatch handle grab the line in your left hand and pull on the clew line to unfurl the sail (guiding and letting the furl line wrap around the furler. Once the sail is open you just push the furling line back into the twist and stow handle and flip it down to lock it and keep the furling line tight between your pedals out of your way while your sailing. Of course you can partially furl the sail in windy conditions (after a while you get a good feel for how much sail to have out depending on the wind and condition (this is a really important aspect of using the furling systems (the ability to sail with a partially furled sail, just like on the Islands)).
I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm not real familiar with the hobie furler system and have not used or seen one. I'm just suggesting now everyone understands how we all did it back in the day, some clever fellow might be able to come up with a new furling option (down the center) incorporating the Hobie furler that might be handy, that hasn't been discussed in many years (if not forget about it). Like I said earlier, we put many thousands of miles on all of our old sailing kayaks using the afore mentioned method with no difficulties before the Hobie furling system ever came out, understanding how it worked (back in the day) is hopefully helpful and might give someone some ideas.
Hope this helps
FE
Edit: the coolest thing about the setup we used, was it required nothing at all to be affixed or permanently mounted to the kayak at all. Many times when we traveled we would just take the sail kits along (in the supplied nice sail bags), then rent just standard Hobies at the destinations using our own sail kits (leaving our boats at home, yes you can check the sail kits as baggage on the airlines). Lol just like american express, 'never leave home without them'.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:48 pm 
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Wow, intriguing. I'd love to see some pics or video. I am planning on getting one or two sails but am afraid of capsizing during the learning curve and letting water in the small cockpit hatch with your method.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:44 pm 
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You wouldn't unscrew the hatch cover ever, you only flip the handle up then trap the cord under the handle to hold the cord in place.
Capsizing is all part of kayak sailing, you will capsize once in a while. It's important to know how to remount the kayak on the water, harder than it sounds and something that should be practiced.
FE


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:04 pm 
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Aha, thanks for clarifying!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:47 am 
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Leaving fusioneng's quote below since it's a long but very informative post. As you can see I've resurrected this old post because I'm digging for information. I bought two used Hobie MD yaks about 8 months ago (2011 14' PA and 2008 13' Revo) and because I spent considerable amount of time building my trailer, it hasn't been until recently that I've used them. But the 4 times we have used them they have been an absolute blast.

I bought a std sail kit, larger sailing rudder (for the Revo) and a Hobie furler kit.

I'm having reservations still on opening the furler kit, esp. now since reading this post. I really like the idea of routing the furling line between the pedals. So I have some questions:

1. Any problems with the twist and lock handle of the hatch? I've rather have a simple cleat but anything outside of using the handle will result in more hardware and holes.
2. For the DIY PVC furler, does it stay with the sail? In other words, would I be about to use it on my PA 14 as well?
3. Speaking of the PA 14, it has the older style center hatch that just flips up with bungees as hinges. Maybe in that situation I could bold a small cleat to the center of the hatch (it has a small ~ 10" X 10" black HDPE cover).
4. On the larger sailing rudder, any experience on how it raises and lowers on the older lever rudder up/down lever on the stbd side right behind the seat of the Revo 13? As it is now it's a little firm/sluggish/stretchy feeling and I'm concerned with nearly double the mass of the sailing rudder. I think it will be a lot harder to lift from down position.
5. For the main sheet line, how do you control yours? Most I see through a block as far back on the yak as possible, then possibly a fairlead/block over to the aft stbd area, then up to the stbd side for right hand control. I see this guys is using a nifty double direction cam cleat with a modified block just forward so he simply pulls and seats to either cleat if he wants to lock the main sheet or let it out (would like to find this double direction cam cleat?): https://youtu.be/0PoATH8pXFE
5. Called these guys: https://www.yaksailing.com/ and the US rep is nwt in Houston, TX which I visit about 4 times a year. Super nice guy and if this kit proves to be a winner (like you describe fusioneng) then I may want to look into getting the 3M giant from them for the PA 14.

This was our maiden trip with our "new to us" Hobie yaks: https://youtu.be/A62EkbJdVsY

Thank you,
Roy


fusioneng wrote:
We are longtime kayak sailers on Hobie kayaks, actually every Hobie we have ever bought we included the sail kit with the purchase and have literally never taken one out without the sail kit strapped to the side of the boat. Then we got a TI which pushes all our buttons (we mostly go offshore anymore), so we kind of stopped using our smaller kayaks and just weren't using them anymore so we sold the smaller ones a couple years back.
The Hobie furler wasn't available until a couple years ago, prior to that most of us built our own simple single line furlers using about two bucks worth of PVC pipe.
The reason I'm mentioning all this is you might have a third option for furling the sail available that I haven't heard anyone talk about or discuss in a very long time (many years now).
On the PVC furlers we used very light 1/8" line that just coiled up around a 6 inch long piece of PVC pipe. On our boats we always ran the furling line right up the center of the hull (between the mirage pedals. Pretty much every Hobie mirage kayak has a twist and stow hatch right in front of the seat. They all have the little flip up handle that you flip up and twist to open the hatch. What we would do when wanting to use the sail kit is remove the sail from the side of the boat (where it was held on by the paddle bungy. Drop the sail into the hole, before hooking up the clew line grab the furling line and spin the sail (with the sail still wrapped and lashed around the mast) by pulling on the furling line until you only have about one turn left on the spool, (the furling line runs straight back between the two pedal of the mirage drive (out of the way)). Then flip up the center twist and stow handle, wrap the line around the handle 1/2 turn then jam the handle back down (this pinches and locks the furling line down. Now you can reach up, untie the sail wrap line and hook up the clew line then pull it tight and cleat it. You are now ready to sail.

All the old Hobie sail kits came with a big black bungy to hold the sail down, we would always cut them off and replace them with the pvc furler (with the furler you don't need the bungy anymore, it's just in the way). To unfurl the sail you simply lift the hatch handle grab the line in your left hand and pull on the clew line to unfurl the sail (guiding and letting the furl line wrap around the furler. Once the sail is open you just push the furling line back into the twist and stow handle and flip it down to lock it and keep the furling line tight between your pedals out of your way while your sailing. Of course you can partially furl the sail in windy conditions (after a while you get a good feel for how much sail to have out depending on the wind and condition (this is a really important aspect of using the furling systems (the ability to sail with a partially furled sail, just like on the Islands)).
I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm not real familiar with the hobie furler system and have not used or seen one. I'm just suggesting now everyone understands how we all did it back in the day, some clever fellow might be able to come up with a new furling option (down the center) incorporating the Hobie furler that might be handy, that hasn't been discussed in many years (if not forget about it). Like I said earlier, we put many thousands of miles on all of our old sailing kayaks using the afore mentioned method with no difficulties before the Hobie furling system ever came out, understanding how it worked (back in the day) is hopefully helpful and might give someone some ideas.
Hope this helps
FE
Edit: the coolest thing about the setup we used, was it required nothing at all to be affixed or permanently mounted to the kayak at all. Many times when we traveled we would just take the sail kits along (in the supplied nice sail bags), then rent just standard Hobies at the destinations using our own sail kits (leaving our boats at home, yes you can check the sail kits as baggage on the airlines). Lol just like american express, 'never leave home without them'.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:34 pm 
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niswanger:
I'll try to answer as much as I can, most of the stuff I described is all just common sense solutions. Keep in mind most of my stuff was all done before Hobie ever introduced a sail furling system, so all of us had to make up all our own stuff.

1. Any problems with the twist and lock handle of the hatch? I've rather have a simple cleat but anything outside of using the handle will result in more hardware and holes.

FE: we used the home made pvc single line furlers on all of our kayaks, (around 8), actually we never launched a single kayak since 2007 without a kayak sail, (w/pvc furler) strapped to the side of the boat, just in case we ever found wind and wanted to kayak sail, (our favorite thing to do). All our boats had the same center round hatch with the flip up handle right in front of us. In ten yrs of hard use we never damaged any of the flip up handles, trapping ropes under the handles, (we used mostly 1/8" dia rope or paracord).


2. For the DIY PVC furler, does it stay with the sail? In other words, would I be about to use it on my PA 14 as well?

FE: It takes about $5 bucks in materials and around 10-15 minutes to make a pvc furler for the Hobie kayak sails. Typically once you install the furler on a sail/mast, you just leave the furler on the sail for the life of the sail. You can transport everything from boat to boat.

3. Speaking of the PA 14, it has the older style center hatch that just flips up with bungees as hinges. Maybe in that situation I could bold a small cleat to the center of the hatch (it has a small ~ 10" X 10" black HDPE cover).

FE: I know little about the PA, (never owned one), you will need to figure that one out for yourself. I was only highlighting that running the single furler line between the pedals to some sort of cleat (or round hatch handle), in front of you is a handy and easy solution to furling. Basically to operate you just pull the furler line with one hand and guide the sail control line with the other to furl/unfurl the Hobie kayak sail. I think the whole key to everything we did, was we never did any permanent mods to any of our kayaks at all, (we just simply used what was already there). We sold most of our kayaks after a couple yrs of use for pretty close to what we paid for them, (people don't like to buy used kayaks with extensive mods, and all kinds of holes drilled in them, (just fyi)), so we never drilled any holes in any of our boats, kept them all as stock as possible, (for re-sale). Anything and everything we ever made were all add ons to the stock boat, (easily removed).

4. On the larger sailing rudder, any experience on how it raises and lowers on the older lever rudder up/down lever on the stbd side right behind the seat of the Revo 13? As it is now it's a little firm/sluggish/stretchy feeling and I'm concerned with nearly double the mass of the sailing rudder. I think it will be a lot harder to lift from down position.

FE: We had the same lever on our 2 revo's, the levers kinda sucked, (poor design), whether you had the regular or the big sailing rudder, didn't seem to make a big difference to us, (they both sucked). One thing you can do is saw off the bottom 4-5 inches from the sailing rudder, (you don't need that much rudder, (overkill). Even with the sawed off sailing rudder the boat kayak sails just fine, (tons of threads and posts about the subject). With the shortened sailing rudder, you can go in much shallower water.

5. For the main sheet line, how do you control yours? Most I see through a block as far back on the yak as possible, then possibly a fairlead/block over to the aft stbd area, then up to the stbd side for right hand control. I see this guys is using a nifty double direction cam cleat with a modified block just forward so he simply pulls and seats to either cleat if he wants to lock the main sheet or let it out (would like to find this double direction cam cleat?): https://youtu.be/0PoATH8pXFE

FE: That video shows a pretty slick system, (probably worthwhile), we never wanted to go that complex, everything we had was super simple, (just the basics). We had the sail control lines permanently attached to each boat, (never removed), We would just grab a furled up sail kit and strap it to the side of the boat, (where the paddle normally is held on with a bungy). If we were out, and felt the desire to sail, we would just plug the sail in, then attach the sail control line, (via a carabiner), then just start sailing. It's not a good idea to cleat your sail control line when kayak sailing, (just hold it in your hand), just sayin, (first hand experience, lol).


5. Called these guys: https://www.yaksailing.com/ and the US rep is nwt in Houston, TX which I visit about 4 times a year. Super nice guy and if this kit proves to be a winner (like you describe fusioneng) then I may want to look into getting the 3M giant from them for the PA 14.

FE: The standard Hobie kayak sail is great on the old revo, but a tad small for our old Oasis's, and our TI's, we typically built bigger sails for the bigger boats, (I design and build most of my own sails).
I would buy one of those sails in a heartbeat......

This is one of the wing sails on one of our old TI's (33 sq ft) used for kayak sailing.
Image

Hope this helps answer some questions, we sure had a heck of a lot of fun with all that stuff.

FE


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Again, quote below so the reply isn't lost. First, thank you for taking the time to reply, goes for all your posts here on this forum. I'm glad I'm taking a more open-minded approach to my options. I'm in no rush. Some quick follow-ups:

- I noticed your image has a domain of googleusercontent. I'm a long time subscriber to flickr and would rather start using my google storage but could never figure out how to deep link google photos. Me thinks you've figured out "a way" from google to deeplink your photos :)
- Speaking of that image, that sail looks awesome, more narrow, looks like it wouldn't be in your face as much. Plus looks like you have artificially lengthened the vessel by adding that main sheet block cage back aft?
- Makes sense on the sailing rudder, will research and cut off the desired amount.
- Also makes sense on not cleating the main sheet...easy turtle maneuver imminent.
- Being that the Hobie Sail furler was $60 (after my 15% veteran discount), I think it might be worth some savings to just build my own.
- I presume sail building is sort of a trade talent, but gosh, give me the materials and a plan and I would not be shy about trying it out.
- I dig the "leave the main sheet line" attached to the yaks, makes it a lot easier to rig for sail.
- Finally, I see you have FL registration numbers. I need to see about my state (TX) if I need to register. Right now man powered yaks do not need registration, only if you put a gas or electric propulsion on the vessel.
- I miss FL for the wealth of water-ways and good fishing :(

Thank you,
Roy

fusioneng wrote:
This is one of the wing sails on one of our old TI's (33 sq ft) used for kayak sailing.
Image

Hope this helps answer some questions, we sure had a heck of a lot of fun with all that stuff.

FE


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Roy-

I'm using a Star Giant sail on my Outback. The rep in Houston is a super nice guy.

I'm not very knowledgable about sailing other than reading the Aubrey-Maturin books as a kid, so I'm obviously no expert, but I have been working on rigging my sail to accommodate the steep angle of the main sheet which results in bending the flexible Star mast when lying close to the wind. The early experiment can be found in this thread:

https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=59653

The rig is called a "bottle rocket" for obvious reasons and I've shortened it and decreased the angle after some trial and error. I've also stiffened the mast a bit which seems to be fine as long as I'm aware of the extra stress on the receiver and reef the sail in higher/gusty winds.

Whichever way you go in sailing these yaks, you'll have a blast.

PdM

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:14 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
niswanger:
I used to use photobucket, but they screwed everyone over big time, and I won't ever use them again.

I moved over as much as I could recover over to google photos, (not much)....most everything was lost.

When trying to embed google photos into the forum I ran into problems, so I did a web search for the solution.
I found this web site ctrlg.org and they seem to have a solution that seems to work for now, (I doubt it will be around long term, just sayin) link is below,,,,, yea it's a pain, but it's all I got.

https://ctrlq.org/google/photos/?_ga=2. ... 1521658929

I think others have came up with better solutions.

That sail being a wing sail when not under power just pivots like a weathervane 360 degrees. Wing sails have very little side force, (the force trying to tip you over). Keep in mind that sail is dual purpose, when in full sailing mode, (with AMA's and big sail sets offshore), the sail is used as a jib. When I designed it I also made it available as a kayak sail for our TI kayak, (which btw is our favorite pastime, we always have a blast kayak sailing). We typically go out in kayak mode with that sail furled up and strapped to the side of the boat, (on the paddle holders), just in case we find wind.

The reason the boat is registered is because I had outboards for far offshore use, (my daily range was 100+ miles), we mostly liked to scuba dive the coral reefs when at our other house in Key West, (all of which are 5-15 miles out offshore). The waters down there, (keys) are extremely dangerous, I don't recommend anyone doin that.

Here is an old video with the boat in full blown sailing mode offshore, (same exact sail, being used as a wing jib)
https://youtu.be/iX-i4ffbllY


In contrast here is another video of the same exact boat, ( a TI) with 260sq ft of sail area available using just regular sails, (no wings, and the motor put away) in the same area with similar wind conditions (under 5mph winds, which is typically around here 80% of the year). Conclusion I much prefer to spend a buck on fuel for the day and actually get somewhere and do real stuff, lol...

https://youtu.be/zW62S1_RfYQ


When not using the boat for the offshore crap, we used it as a kayak, (all the same boat), and loved to kayak sail, We just leave all the extra crap back at our campsite. LOL your just not goin to take that big ole boat, (12 ft wide and 21 ft long, and almost 20 ft tall) with all that riggin down a ten ft wide river, that's why I liked the kayak mode...which we ended up using kayak mode almost half the time.

Keep in mind we travel a lot, last yr alone we were out traveling out and about the country 6 months, (15,000 miles). We visited most of the national parks with my lifetime national park entry pass, (that dang pass cost me $10 bucks I wanted to be sure to get my moneys worth).
Here is our rig:
Image

Since the TI was our only boat, ( it was our family boat), we wanted something that was versatile. One day we might be scuba diving with 4 people 10-15 miles out in open ocean, then a couple days later we might be quietly kayaking the Sante FE river, (natural springs in middle Florida). Then maybe a month later make the run out to Mackinac island, (to stay overnight at the grand hotel, (we parked the boat right next to that tree from the movie, 'Somewhere in Time'), though I will never do that trip again.... Then a few days later run the Huron river rapids in Ann Arbor, (in kayak mode). Yea we did all that crap for 8 yrs, and had an absolute blast. If I could have I would be out in the boat every day, lol.




Hope this helps
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:07 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
FE


It feels odd to quote long posts but also I think the quoting action alerts the OP of the reply so I've quoted you but took out your last message. Hope you understand.

We'll, I too searched the web for using google photos and came up short. I've even ran my own photography forums for several years so I'm very familiar with MySQL back-end forums (I was using Simple Machines Forums) and all the bulletin board code and formatting. Looks promising, better than using my flickr account (which has always worked) so let's try:

Image

^ This is a mobile phone image that I synced to my Google Photos. I took it because I wanted to see if anyone has used this tape as maybe a sacrificial keel guard of sorts? They even sell clear. Stuff in this "flex seal" line is over-hyped and priced IMHO. Just seeking ways to protect my heel that isn't too over-board.

Anyway, seems like you have worked hard to get to a place in life that's enjoyable and I sure hope I can do the same. Your trips sound amazing, I'd be very happy following your foot-steps.

I had to look up the purpose of a jib. I think what sets you and most other Hobie kayakers apart is the TI/AI part. That vessel is just designed from the ground up to be a super cool "kayaka-maran", that is just more suited for the things you are doing. In fact the guy I bought the std Hobie Kayak sail from uses an AI with motor to fish oil rigs off the cost of TX.

My father-in-law is visiting next week and I will be seeking his advice on rigging this sail to our Revo and PA 14. He has an AI and really enjoys it and has owned smaller sail boats in the past.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the key differences between the OEM Hobie Kayak Sail Furler and the PVC DIY version (still haven't opened the Hobie I bought this week). It seems the Hobie affixes permanently to the mast with set screws so it spins the mast whereas the DIY is not fixed to the mast and it spins the main sheet/sail. Is this so and which is better? The geometry between the Revo and PA 14 are different but I would like to have the furler system interchangeable between the two vessels. Eventually I might bone up for a Star sail on the PA because I feel more area and better wing dynamics of that sail would benefit pushing a larger kayak through the water.

Thank you,

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:43 pm 
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FWIW, the furler on the Star Sail is affixed to a pvc pipe that runs the length of the mast. The sail pocket snuggly slips over the pvc pipe and is connected to the furler. When you operate the furler, it spins the sail/pvc pipe around the mast. The mast does not spin at all. It's a very smooth operation and I like it better than the Hobie furler in terms of operation.

The downside to the Star setup is that it is not designed to be disassembled, so storing/transporting is a little more cumbersome.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Pollo de muerte wrote:
FWIW, the furler on the Star Sail is affixed to a pvc pipe that runs the length of the mast. The sail pocket snuggly slips over the pvc pipe and is connected to the furler. When you operate the furler, it spins the sail/pvc pipe around the mast. The mast does not spin at all. It's a very smooth operation and I like it better than the Hobie furler in terms of operation.

The downside to the Star setup is that it is not designed to be disassembled, so storing/transporting is a little more cumbersome.


Thank you Pollo de muerte! So I understand the Star version and to me it seems would work more efficiently than the DIY PVC since "it seems" to me that version spins around the mast and has to tug/pull the entire sail around the mast. The Hobie version is affixed to the mast and spins the mast and to me (esp. if you put a dome cap on the bottom of the mast so it spins easier in the mast seat/hole) that seems more efficient. But I could certainly be wrong?

Thank you,

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 pm 
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You can put a teflon pad down in the bottom of the mast receiver and those "spin the mast" furlers work pretty good. I just find that the Star version is much smoother in its operation with the penalty of it being more cumbersome to transport and store.

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