Return to Hobie.com
Hobie Forums
It is currently Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:10 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:57 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 1:27 am
Posts: 442
Having retired my old adventure due to a hairline drivewell crack and been using a revo 16 for last year an a half, I have been itching to paddle again for exercise. The adventure/revo is a bit of a hybrid which handicaps it in paddle mode eg lousy foot leg bracing due to open cockpit, hand steering etc. So never really fully utilized it in this mode. Didn't want to DIY any mods as they would get in the way for pedal mode.

Anyway staring at my old 2006 adventure collecting cobwebs I had an idea. I have been reluctant to have the drive well welded ( a local guy does this routinely) due to restressing etc. seemed a shame just to chop it up. A thought occurred to me, what if I convert the old boat into a dedicated paddler?? It will avoid stressing any repair. I could install substantial foot rests. build a DIY center console/pod bolted on top of the drive well plug, which can be demountable. This would give good storage and additional leg bracing. Rig up some kind of bar to the steering handle if need be, or position locking, otherwise learn how to steer with the paddle strokes more effectively. I could still pop the old drive in for a guest paddler for light work if needed.

Better to bugger this up in the attempt than ruin the revo attempting it with that, plus having a drive makes you lazy and stop paddling

Anyone heard of this or got any suggestions as to how to improve on it, as a pure paddler?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:46 am 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 3017
Location: Escondido
Here are a couple of options regarding temporarily sealing the drivewell. Also, you will need to add a skeg (or just use your rudder) for better directional stability. 8)

Roadrunner wrote:
For temporary sealing you can use clear packing tape to close off the scupper at the bottom. I use this to seal off the front drivewell, for example, when taking the tandem out solo. The tape holds well for months if the surface is clean and dry when taped.
Image Image




Roadrunner wrote:
I'm a big fan of streamlining and think it makes a difference. I normally prefer the tape-over -- not as elegant, but no seams. But on the Oasis I need access to the well for boat handling out of the water so I wanted something that would be almost as good and easily removable.

Although this is not a watertight fit, I didn't notice any surge -- no room for a lot of water movement!

The material came from a scrap hull of the same color (not mine!). I made a template from paper and chalk and cut it slightly oversize so I could get a snug fit by filing. Here's one that could be used by sizing it up to 12 1/16" (or whatever your exact drivewell length is):Image

Remember the plug has to be able to extract through the hull, so there has to be enough clearance that it doesn't get stuck! Each drivewell is slightly unique, so this was fitted for this particular well (although it looked perfectly usable in the other well also).

A black drivewell plug is put into position. It doesn't matter if it's off center, as the pieces will be in place when glued so the combination fit will be correct. If the plug is a little short, you can make spacers (I used more scrap PE) to bring the PE portion of the plug right up to flush with the hull bottom.
Image

A good snug fit will automatically limit fore and aft pivot of the piece, or you can build up the front and rear shoulders of the black plug (marine epoxy seems to work there) to keep it from pivoting in the C&G. Here's another view of the finished installation:
Image
8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:53 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3062
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
The only Hobie mirage kayak that I know that tracks well (like a paddle yak) is the Tandem island in kayak mode, it actually glides and tracks very well (I'm sure because it is very long).
Most of the other Hobies mirage kayaks we have owned tracked terrible and were no comparison paddlingwise to even a very low end paddle yak. I'm unsure about the old adventure, have never been in one.
Our favorite non adventure kayaks we always the revo 13 (we had a matching pair of them for me and wife all rigged for kayak sailing). When paddling (with no mirage drive or rudder) we would drag a 1/4" rope (we used the sailing kit 1/4" control line). It really makes a huge difference on tracking when paddling with no rudder, and the mirage drive removed.

Just a suggestion once you get your old adventure tuned in for paddling, if it doesn't track well try the dragging rope trick.

Just ideas
FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:43 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
I don't understand the poor tracking comments relating to the Adventure when paddling?
This will be my tenth year commuting in an Adventure. I mostly paddle it and only use the Miragedrive when the wind gets up. I find it tracks well when paddling, without using the rudder. I lock my feet into the footwell scallops, tighten the seat back for support and average 6-7km/h paddling. If a crosswind gets up over 10 knots I may drop the rudder for tracking, but usually if I need to do that I'll put the Miragedrive in and pedal. I average 7-8km/h pedalling but I prefer paddling if conditions are right. Though I don't pedal that much I would never get a paddle only kayak because I know the Miragedrive will get me home in the worst of conditions. Many times I have had to return into 30knot+ winds. The Miragedrive guarantees I can get back in those conditions! 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 1:27 am
Posts: 442
I find it tracks well with no drive in, no cross wind and no cross tide, especially with no wind catching crates etc on the back. In fact it runs way straighter than the Quest. However when loaded and a stiff breeze catching the gear on the back it starts to veer. Without a skeg or deploying rudder the tracking effect works against you as it is harder to pull back into line. . Same issue crossing running tide, really need the rudder to keep it on line.

Obviously improving paddling skills will help here, which is one of the reasons for making it more user friendly. The existing foot scallops are badly spaced for me and I struggle with the grip.

Having recently had a go in a stealth glass kayak, highlighted the difference between proper bracing and sitting in a bathtub. Even the quest is a big improvement in this aspect

Wouldn't want to seal off the drive well completely as you need it for drainage, though streamlining the bottom could be a good idea. Maybe attaching foot pegs to the drive plugs rather than side of kayak could solve the issue of not having them permanently there if used in pedal more, and makes it switchable between kayaks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:31 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3062
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
stringy:
Stingy I have never sat in an adventure so I know nothing about the boat ( I have a TI, which is longer). That's good news that it tracks well, my suggestion was if he needs better tracking on any mirage kayak he might just try the dragging rope trick. In ten years of using Hobie mirage kayaks we have never launched a Hobie kayak (not even once) without a sail kit strapped to the side of the boat, so all of our rigs have all the ropes and lines for the sail kit installed anyway, (the ropes are there might as well use em for somethin when not sailing).
Most paddle yaks appear to have a channel or something in their design that helps them track better without needing to make constant course corrections with the paddle, which consumes extra energy constantly having to course correct (ie... paddle, paddle, drag, paddle, paddle, paddle drag) with our Revo's and our Oasis kayaks that was always the theme when paddling. Our old Oasis was particularly poor when tandem paddling, the seating positions were a little too close together, and tracking in tandem mode on the Oasis was particularly painful ( we come from the Canoe community). The Revo's are very short, and with each stroke the boat turns so you end up adjusting way too often vs a standard paddle kayak (even some of the cheap rental kayaks), Obviously the high end sea kayaks (many are more expensive than Hobies), paddle and track like a dream, and a good paddler can cover great distances with great ease, but you pay for that. I for one can't keep pace with an experienced sea kayaker even with my TI (which is a really good kayak in my opinion.

As far as blocking off the mirage opening and making the boat glide better I did a few things.
in my rear drive well (which I seldom use), I took the standard mirage plug put it into the rear mirage slot, beforehand I took I sprayed urethane release spray all over the mirage drive opening.
I then flipped the boat over and pumped in about 1/2 tube of silicone all over the top of the mirage plug and built up the silicone so it matched the contour of the bottom of the boat. To make it smooth I just layed wax paper over the whole works and used a trowel to smooth everything out matching the hull contour. I left several small thru holes in a few spots for water drainage (mostly near the ends). I then just left it dry a day or so, and it's done. After it all sets up carefully pry the silicone off the kayak hull, I trimmed away some of the feather edges and thin spots with scissors. Now I put the mirage plug in like normal, the lip just deforms and pushes out of the way when putting the plug in, but once it's in it settles into the right position. I've been using it for a while now, and it actually works pretty good. The main reason for doing it this way was it requires no skill whatsoever and only takes 30 minutes to do and maybe $2 bucks worth of silicone, anyone can do this.

The next thing I did was all my scupper holes I filled with silicone with a straw poked thru the middle for drainage, I just contoured the silicone to match the hull shape. I just stuffed a paper towel into the scupper opening to support the silicone while squirting in ( I later picked the paper towel out of there with a hook after all the silicone setup.

The next thing I did was scrape the entire bottom of the boat with a single edge razor blade to remove all scratches, any really deep scratches I filled with my Hobie welder. I then sprayed the entire bottom of the boat with a thin coat of Krylon for plastics clear coat.

I then sprayed the entire bottom of the boat with Rustolium Never wet spray paint. The never wet pain makes water repel and bead up on the boat so the hull is slippery in the water.
This is the stuff I used:
Image

It creates a suprisingly durable slick finish that actually lasts quite a while ( I've had it on there about a year and it's still going strong). Result is the coating greatly reduces the friction of the boat going thru the water.

The whole key here obviously is the Krylon for plastic clear coat base coat, it has Heptane in it (Heptane melts HDPE), so it bonds to the hull giving you a foothold for the Neverwet (which would never stick to the bare hull). Actually I use the Krylon on any repairs or mods, it allows you to use any old caulk or silicone, or paint, or stickers to bond to the HDPE hull (normally nothing sticks to the stuff).

Obviously my boat is a complex hybrid tri-powered peddle boat and I'm looking to exploit every ounce of energy savings I can get, hopefully some of my ideas will help someone who wants a very efficient paddle or peddle yak for great distances. I'm no extreme athlete, but am a clever guy. I know my own physical limitations, so I designed my pedal boat around my own physical limitations so I can currently easily cover 100 miles a day (10 hrs at 10 mph = 100 miles) regardless of wind and wind direction, all within my own physical peddling ability (which is meager). I'm still 5 yrs away (designwise) from my ultimate goal of 300 hundred miles nonstop averaging 12mph (using tri-power).

FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:33 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 1:27 am
Posts: 442
Yep adventure hull doesn't "yaw" with each stroke as a shorter revo would do. The long water line combined with little rocker prevents this, which also reduces effectiveness of a corrective stroke to pull it pack on line when it starts to veer.

I guess the rope thing is a mild version of the storm drogues out the back to prevent back of a vessel swinging around in a following see causing broaching

Interesting way of profiling bottom of plug. Does sand and grit etc get embedded in silicone or damage it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:04 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 3017
Location: Escondido
fusioneng wrote:
Most paddle yaks appear to have a channel or something in their design that helps them track better without needing to make constant course corrections with the paddle,
The main difference (below the water line) between Hobie's Mirage Drive boats and their paddling boats is the skeg. Without it, the Mirage boats" sterns slide around quite easily. This is great for turning on a dime and not so good for tracking. The small amount of rocker and sharp bow (which acts like a "reverse skeg") exacerbate the directional instability. The shorter the boat, the worse the tracking. My Revo 11 will do a 180 if it gets off course by the smallest amount. On the other hand, the Adventure / Revo 16 is much more directionally stable.

To verify this, go forward with the rudder stowed and see what happens. With any sideways stimulus, the boats continue to turn in that direction. Now reverse the Drive and do the same thing backwards. The boats will go reasonably straight and if any sideways input is applied, the boat will stop turning when the input is removed. This is because the bow acts as an effective skeg going backwards.

This effect is heightened if you are carrying weight in the bow (which I do to minimize hydrodynamic lift).

Of course the rudder will do what a skeg does and more. With properly tensioned directional lines, it stays in place once set and does a good job of holding the boat on course (especially the sailing rudder).

Unlike the shorter kayaks, the Adventure cannot be effectively edged for augmented turning, so rudderless turning has to be done with the paddle only. The shorter boats seem to be better at edging.

Of course, wind, chop, swell and current have their own effects and have to be dealt with accordingly. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group