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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:05 am 
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Location: Northern Michigan
Hi,

Thank you for all the hugely helpful posts on here.

I am considering joining the Hobie Club and purchasing 2 Revo 13's. :-)

My dealer has a brand new 2016 and 2017 for a discounted price.

I know that the 2016 doesn't have reverse, but since we won't be doing any fishing, I don't think that's a big deal. Is it?

Is there anything else on the 2016 and 2017 that I would be missing out on as compared to the 2018?

These both have the improved V2? Mirage drive with the Delrin bearings, right?

Is there anything that I should realistically get him to try to throw in?

What about Turbo fins and sailing rudder that everyone talks about? Do I want those? Do Turbo fins make it harder to pedal?

How much deeper does sailing rudder extend vs regular rudder? If a lot and I will be in skinny water, maybe sailing rudder wouldn't be good?

How much are turbo fins and sailing rudder?

Anything else that I should know?

So many questions! :-)

Thank you!

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Last edited by NorthMI on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:00 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
If I recall the big sailing rudder for twist and stow isn’t very expensive (use to be around $30 bucks as I recall). If you buy that rudder, install and lop off the bottom 4-5” of the rudder with a saw, you get actually improved rudder control, whether kayak sailing or not. Result is you can go in much shallower water and still have good rudder control, ( even thru mangrove tunnels and over shoals).
We all know the shorter hobies don’t track all that well, ( lol you use the whole river) with the rudder up, especially when paddling in shallow water compared to equal paddle yaks, ( because the boats are designed from the ground up for the mirage drive, ( and kayak sailing, it’s a given everyone at hobie are sailers, so every one of Hobies mirage kayaks are designed from the ground up to be a great kayak sailer, ( couple minor exeptions only)).
We have owned a lot of Hobies over the years with the Revo 13 being our fav.
Learn how to shallow pedal, if you get good at it you can go thru mangrove tunnels, over oyster beds, and thru very shallow water without fear, ( at low tide quite a bit of sarasota bay is only 8” deep). We have never launched a hobie kayak without a sail kit strapped to the side of the kayak, ( not even once), just in case we find wind, ( pretty rare here). With the sail kits and mirage drives, we easily quadruple our range over any paddle yaks we have owned.
Also there is nothing wrong with pedaling and paddling at the same time, especially in tough conditions.
I’m not sure about the newer boats, but on the older boats we shoved a rag under the steering knob to hold the rudder straight, ( making tracking easier with the chopped off sailing rudder down).
I would definately upgrade to the turbo fins, the kit is not real expensive, with the turbo fins you consume much less energy to go equal speeds, and can go much further. Unless your nuts and want to go really fast, in that case you will poop out much quicker with turbo fins. Your not racing anyone, pace yourself, we can pedal around ten hrs easily with a few breaks at a moderate pace, never could paddle that far on recreational paddle kayaks.
All just my opinions
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:41 pm 
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NorthMI wrote:
I know that the 2016 doesn't have reverse, but since we won't be doing any fishing, I don't think that's a big deal. Is it?
No

Quote:
Is there anything else on the 2016 and 2017 that I would be missing out on as compared to the 2018?
Nothing major

Quote:
These both have the improved V2? Mirage drive with the Delrin bearings, right?
The 2016 had the "GT" Drive, roller bearings, non-reversing, larger fins -- an outstanding Drive.

Quote:
Is there anything that I should realistically get him to try to throw in?
You need a standard cart (unless you are launching in soft sand).

Quote:
What about Turbo fins and sailing rudder that everyone talks about? Do I want those? Do Turbo fins make it harder to pedal?
Yes. Yes insofar as they are larger, can push more water to make you go faster. Most people get them -- I'm a huge fan.

Quote:
How much deeper does sailing rudder extend vs regular rudder? If a lot and I will be in skinny water, maybe sailing rudder wouldn't be good?
The sailing rudder gives you much better rudder authority at low speed -- really makes the boat more responsive at all speeds. You can cut it down as fusioneng says. It's an excellent performer this way. Notice this one is slightly shorter than the small rudder for even shallower performance. Even in general use (including sailing) this "Phat-Boy" rudder does a great job!

Image

Image

Quote:
How much are turbo fins and sailing rudder?
Talk with your dealer -- he might make you a package price! 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:55 am 
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Location: Northern Michigan
Thank you RoadRunner and Fusioneng! You both are so helpful!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:33 am 
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Location: Quebec
For sailing, the chop off rudder is gonna be still good enought?
I just bought a revo 16 and order the ama kit and star sail supernova and gt combo. I will use the kayak in shallow water and was looking for a way to still be able to use the rudder. If it's still perform well this would be awesome for my use.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:35 am 
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All of our kayaks were setup for sailing, and we used the chopped off big sailing rudder with all of them with no issues.
The rudders are not expensive, I would buy two, and cut one off, and leave the other.
It doesn’t take long to switch them out.
If your going to be out surfing in ocean, use the big rudder, everywhere else the short one will work fine.
Make sure to get the dagger board for the revo 16.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:06 am 
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Location: Quebec
Yes, I also got the daggerboard, turbo fin kit and trax 2-30 cart. I can't wait to get it, it was the last one left in canada, 2018 model with arc drive! I should get it in about a week. I will also do the skeg mod! :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:35 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
The skeg mod may effect your steering when kayak sailing, or when using the daggerboard.
You may not need the skeg mod on the revo 16, it tracks pretty darn good without the skeg.
The problem that creeps up is when kayak sailing, with the mirage drive pointed down, or your daggerboard down, the pivit point for turns, which the rudder executes, If you add the skeg as well it will make turning much harder.
If you planning to kayak sail mostly, I don’t recommend doing the skeg.
The skeg mod is beneficial for kayaking only on the shorter boats, my opinion on the revo 16, it may hurt more than it helps, (none of the other boats have daggerboards).
Just my opinion of course, (fyi I don’t own a revo 16, most of my recent boats were TI’s, which are very similar to the revo 16).
That Star sail looks very good, (been lookin at those myself), the hobie kayak sail is probably smallish on a revo 16.
I’m just saying reason it all out before proceeding with the skeg mod.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:35 pm 
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I am talking about this really small skeg tha's 6.5cmX 6.5cmX 21cm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqkgltbbm0sqijb/skeg.jpg?dl=0

You think it could make turning that much harder for sailing?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:51 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yes it will make steering very difficult, just reason out for yourself how it all works. Think of the skeg as a second rudder right next to or just forward of the regular rudder, but instead of being turnable, it’s fixed straight. You turn the other rudder and the boat won’t turn, it will just drag. This is because the pivot point for turning is way up in the front of the boat, ( either mirage fins pointed down, or your daggerboard), you can’t have two pivot points.
I’m only talking about sailing here. A skeg mounted a couple feet ahead of the rudder on a regular kayak, works great for regular kayaking. Though in my opinion not nessessary on a revo 16, but that’s just my opinion, ( the revo 16 is a pretty darn sound and stable kayak in kayak mode, no need to add anything).


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Location: Quebec
thank you fusioneng for your prompt reply. I will test it without the skeg. As for stability, i'll use the ama kit as insurance for when i'll be doing photography! I don't want to dump my camera and lense in the water!! :)

https://flic.kr/p/23LFTTN


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:47 pm 
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rick2906 wrote:
For sailing, the chop off rudder is gonna be still good enought?
I just bought a revo 16 and order the ama kit and star sail supernova and gt combo. I will use the kayak in shallow water
To answer your question, I might re-think the rudder chop, or at least make it one inch longer (or about the same length as the small rudder). The reason is this:

When sailing, you want a balanced helm or a mild weather helm. The more weather helm you have, the greater demands on your rudder to control the boat. You get weather helm when the center of pressure (CP) on your sail is aft of the boat's center of lateral resistance (CLR). This becomes a potential issue when sailing close hauled or when tacking. With the Hobie sail, the CP is aft of the CLR, providing acceptible weather helm (with the large rudder). Your Star sail, being larger, the CP will be further aft of the CLR. I've never tried the sail, but based on others experiences, this doesn't seem to be a problem for the sailing rudder, but I would be cautious about cutting it down until you see how well it handles your sail.
fusioneng wrote:
Yes it will make steering very difficult, just reason out for yourself how it all works. .
You may have seen this discussion on the use of skeglets with the Revo 16 (AKA Adventure):
https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ilit=skegs

Stringy's actual use of skeglets would seem to contradict fusioneng's "reasoning". Stringy also shows how to attach them.
stringy wrote:
As part of my testing I did a 360degree turn while pedaling.
On the water it felt like I turned almost in a boat length. Here is what my GPS recorded. That is a 30’ yacht on the left.
Image
It is possible that the reason this works is because the skeglets do not protrude below the keel line on the Revo 16. When moving forward, they help stabilize the stern, but when a turn is made, they are significantly masked by the keel, therefore minimally interfering with the rudder action. If you were to have any weather helm problems, these could be a nice remedy. They probably won't do much for you in the tacking department though. I recommend waiting on these until you see how your rudder performs.

Regarding sailing in skinny waters, it's difficult to sail upwind without some sort of bilge board which needs to project below the boat. Using Turbofins or your daggerboard will require a greater minimum depth than when not sailing. In this regard, your sailing rudder (untrimmed) will require less depth than either of the other two. Sailing downwind in skinny waters you can pretty much rotate fins and daggerboard up against the hull without a problem. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Roadrunner you are probably right. I was trying to point out the logic of having two pivot points when sailing.
Yes Most of my recent boats were TI’, but I’ve sailed along side and been out with and along side plenty old adventures, (which should be darn close to the revo 16). All seemed to have very similar characteristics and capabilities to our TI.
We never had any issues turning our TI’s either sailing or in kayak mode, I was making the assumption that the revo 16, ( aka old adventure) would be similar.
I still don’t think I’m wrong about having two pivot points on a sailboat. Though admitadly the TI has a superior center board design that can be used in much shallower water, (same with newer adventures). Also with the TI anyway, the standard hobie kayak sail is way too small for the boat, ( we used much larger sails when kayak sailing our TI’s, (30 to 33 sq ft)), which likely changes everything. So I should probably shut up.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:27 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Yes Most of my recent boats were TI’, but I’ve sailed along side and been out with and along side plenty old adventures, (which should be darn close to the revo 16). All seemed to have very similar characteristics and capabilities to our TI.
I would certainly agree with you that the Adventure Island sails similarly to the Tandom Island, but the Adventure (revo 16) is a totally different animal than the AI or even TA. It's faster (solo), turns better, is much more responsive and slices through chop easier. Sailing it with the small sail can be quite an "adventure".

That little "way too small" sail may be too small for a TI, but on a Revo 16 can easily take you over 5 MPH and also be a little too much sail, as you can see:
Image
There are times when you have to reef that little sail. In your neck of the woods, perhaps not.

Hopefully our advice will be accurate and complete enough to be of solid benefit to the recipient for his/her intended use.

PS: I appreciate and have benefited greatly from you excellent advise; just happen to disagree with you on this one. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Location: Quebec
I will use the supernova for really light wind day and it is design to spill the excess wind if there's too much of it! On big windy day, I will try the gt sail which is design specifically for big winds. I am new to sailing and kayak so I have lots to learn. I order another sail rudder , so if I cut it too much it won't be a big problem, i'll switch as needed. For photography there is gonna be lots of place with shallow water, where ducks hang out and such! Can't wait, im gonna get my kayak just before my 2 week vacation! :)

Thank you for you're help roadrunner and fusioneng. I did see the thread about the skeg and that's why I was suprise when Fusioneng said it would make it really hard to turn. I'll try the chopped off rudder mod first and see how it goes. I sold my motorcycle and i'll switch to kayak, lol!! I bought the revo 16 because it is the fastest kayak and it will be good to keep me fit and it's the most versatile kayak imo.

Thank you again guys and I didn't want to start any fight here, lol!!


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