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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:08 pm 
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stringy wrote:
6 month update: The skeg bond remains rock solid with no lifting on any edges. There is no difference with primed/ unprimed prep.
Stringy, that's great news! I was wondering about how your skegs were holding up. That was obviously a leap of faith to put the weight on the hull and lift by the skegs -- very impressive! Have you noticed any effect on speed from the additional wetted surface?

WAVERIDER wrote:
Ordered some myself for a job to do in the new year.
How did your skeg job turn out and what did you put them on? 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:11 am 
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Ditto I have had this mod for 5 months used 2-3 times a week on revo 16, with no due consideration to being careful with them. No sign of coming off.

Any extra drag, which will be minimal as they are small, is compensated for by reducing any compensating paddling. Slight reduction in being able to slide the back around when manoeuvring in tight turns, but it is only a small difference and no real issue under normal use. Would have no impact under pedal power as you cant spin tight turns anyway. I drop a small skeg in the dagger board slot if I want to increase manoeuvrability, or additional tracking before resorting to dropping rudder (usually reserved for tricky following seas)

When pedalling the extra tracking reduces the amount of wander when you are not holding the steering lever.

If they hadn't stuck I would be happy to have some made up and have them plastic welded on.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:52 am 
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Good to hear Waverider!
I too would have considered a more radical fixing approach if the VHB didn’t last, the skeg mod is that effective.

Roadrunner,
Thanks!
I agree with Waveriders observations, being the same as what I’ve experienced.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:52 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Just a thought here, wondering if anyone has tried...
We have owned quite a few Hobie kayaks, many different models.
One thing we noticed about most of our hobies is they don’t track well when paddling verses other brands of kayaks, with the rudder up. The only exception being the Tandem Island kayak, ( which actually tracks well, probably because of it’s great length).
To help improve tracking on pretty much all our kayaks we upgraded the rudders on all the boats to the large sailing rudder, ( when we bought the boat). We then sawed off the bottom 4-5 inches of the big rudder so we could go in much shallower water, (a lot of mangroves and oyster beds around here). We also get a lot of weeds on rivers down here in the summer, and must remove our mirage drives and paddle. However a tandem boat like our old oasis the seats were too close together, and the darn thing was really hard to paddle tandem, ( lots of yelling involved, lol).
With the shortened rudder and a rag stuffed under the steering control, all the boats actually didn’t steer half bad, and tracking seemed to improve. And because the rudder is very shallow we no longer damaged rudders. Steering is slightly better than the standard rudder. We also did quite a bit of kayak sailing with those chopped off rudders with no big issues.
Just somethin to try thats all.
Another thing we did, especially with our revos, is every one of our kayaks were always fully rigged for sailing, ( actually we never took a hobie out without a sail kit strapped to the side of the boat, ( not even once). So we had all the ropes for sail control already on the boat. If we were having tracking problems we would just toss the sail control line out and drag it behind the boat, (10-15 ft). I have no idea why, but dragging that 1/4” rope seemed to improve tracking a little while paddling, ( might have been imaginary improvement, lol).
Just stuff to try, that’s all.
FE


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:55 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Just a thought here, wondering if anyone has tried...

We...sawed off the bottom 4-5 inches of the big rudder so we could go in much shallower water.
Meet Phat Albert (shown on a TA)...
Image

...and Little Mo (mounted on a Revo 11)...
Image

With the rudder lines properly tensioned, I can easily paddle a mile on the Revo 11 without having to touch the rudder control in reasonably calm conditions. Both have very good authority and both are excellent in shallow water.

So here's a question -- in what circumstances might I want to ship the rudder and use skegs, other than perhaps surf launching? Maybe more paddle control?

BTW, it's interesting to see how many still break out the paddle, even with the Mirage Drive available (except in cases of weeds and shallows). Perhaps exercise? 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Around here there are gazillians of mangrove tunnels and narrow rivers that we tend to go thru via the brail method. Lol we bounce off most everything, we usually have our double ended paddle in our hands to push off stuff. We shallow peddle when we can, (pedaling the fins like a butterfly, ( takes lots of practice)). When in shallow water we put the bungy on one mirage pedal. If you take your feet off, the fins fold safely against the hull. We then shallow pedal when we can, (with the bungy on the pedal, you can still shallow pedal the boat just fine). Actually we can peddly nicely down to around 8-10” deep water. If your gonna be shallow pedaling in shallow water a long time, it’s easy to adjust the left pedal to position 7, and leave the right pedal at position 3 or 4, makes shallow pedaling easier. Once you get good at it you can go fairly fast shallow pedaling. However you have to clear the sea grass and weeds often in shallow water.
Around here most of the interesting backwater areas are only 8-12” deep at low tide. Lol, unless you really like paddling, learn how to shallow peddle. Which is kind of funny, when we first got our hobies we always pulled our mirage drives in anything less than 3-4ft of water, ( out of fear). Now I almost never pull the mirage drives out, even when we beach. We just put the bungy on. Sure the mirage drives and the hull look like they survived WW2, but we have a lot of fun with the boats.
FE


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:54 am 
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To answer the question why paddle a hobie. The adventure/revo 16 is actually a good paddler, both for exercise and exploring a whole new skill set. When fishing not having the drive installed opens up a whole lot of real estate in the cockpit. Wouldn't paddle any other hobie unless you had a good reason. Any tandem is hard to paddle without a rudder due to coordination issues.

Dropping the rudder seriously hampers manoeuvrability and increases drag, so if you can paddle without it all the better, especially being hand operated you can't get the full benefit of it as a rudder, its just a big over size rear trailing skeg. Trailing a rope will help you track straight, as it dampens the ability of the rear to swing around the same as trailing the rudder. But likewise its ok if you are going more or less straight, especially in a following sea, but will hamper manoeuvrability when you want to swing the back around.

In fact I only insert the drive on the revo 16 now when I have a specific reason to do so, my default is to paddle now.

In a sea kayak they have adjustable skegs so that you can have a little bit of skeg or a lot depending on conditions. Having mini skegs give the small skeg setting and dropping the rudder gives full skeg as suits. Too much and you can start turning downwind. Crossing strong tide it can actually drag the tail down current. In operating rudder mode you angle the rudder, but when just used as trailing skeg you can't so it becomes a liability.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:05 pm 
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WAVERIDER, thanks for the answer. I've also been paddling while pedaling, but primarily for exercise. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:48 am 
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Waverider:
What paddle are you using.....
We aren’t racing anyone, anywhere, however one of our favorite pastimes when we are out and about traveling around the country is following rivers when we are traveling, been doin that since my teens in the BSA on canoes. All our 6 kids are in their 30’s and forty’s now with their own familes so it’s now just wife and I, she knows how much I love this kind of stuff so she rides along to keep me company, (appreciated very much), however there is a huge difference in our physical abilities, ( she pedals/ paddles very little, if at all). So it ends up me mostly peddling 90% of the time up to around ten hours, (and paddling when it’s too shallow, yea she does help paddle). We like the Tandem Island kayak because it glides and tracks very well and it takes very little energy to meander great distances with just me pedaling, ( not tryin to win any races at all). We only day trip, and always return to our RV at night (AC). We are also avid kayak sailers, and have never taken a hobie out without a kayak sail strapped to the side of the boat, if we find wind we use it, but to be honest that’s really seldom, (most of the rivers are tiny and wooded, no wind). BTW, it’s not the Hobie kayak sail, which is way too small for such a big boat, ( we use a furlable 33sq ft wing sail when kayaking), almost never used inland. Obviously if were on lake powell, bull shoals, great lakes, and oceans, were not out there kayaking, we use the fully rigged sailboat, it breaks down to about half and half, when kayaking all the extra crap stays back at the campground. We enjoy both.
We used to have singles, but wife would get exhausted and I had to always tow her the ten miles or so back to launch, so we only use tandems now.
We have pedaled, and tried to paddle, ( with drives removed), in our experience the difference in energy consumption is like night and day for us, distance traveled and cruise speeds for us are dramatically different. We are using the hobie double ended paddles.
That’s my question for you, what paddle are you using to get such dramatic different results from us, ( don’t tell me it’s technique, I’ve been paddling most of my life). Granted I have a very bad back now that has got worse recently, so now I’m handycapped, can’t paddle much anymore, , (back can’t take it, but I can still pedal up a storm), but that’s only recent. What’s your secret.....
FE
Edit:
BTW our hull is massively modified with all underwater interruptions removed, (scupper holes, extra mirage drive slots,etc), and the hull is finished with a special hydrophobic slick coating. When kayaking we run the rudder locked up 20-25 degrees from horizontal, so just the rudder front edge is in the water, kayak steers fine. The center/dagger board is taped over when kayaking. We also have a modified removable planing hull mod, that allows the sailboat to plane at higher speeds, but that’s always removed when kayaking. In kayak mode the bare 2012 TI kayak weighed a tad over 100 lbs, ( mostly car topped when traveling). We don’t use our flow-90, (eclipse) fins when kayaking, but our glide turbo drives are tuned, ( per Roadrunners guidance). Even with all that I can’t do what you do, ( lol)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:36 pm 
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I just thought I'd post a couple pics of my early Mirage Classic that I put the fins on with the flaming / VHB technique outlined by stringy. They've been on there for months, used in estuary environments, mostly and are rock solid. They do seem to help with weather-cocking, although with some of the crosscurrents I encounter, there's only so much I can expect.

Image
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:23 am 
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fusioneng sorry missed your earlier question, so here's a late answer. I use a feathers brand carbon paddle. Not a huge blade, probably an intermediate sized one. I find to get a fast cruise paddle speed requires constant paddle practice otherwise stamina, technique and attention drops and speed starts to wipe off. Especially if you are not monitoring it with gps or similar.

The drag of trailing a rudder is more noticeable under paddle than pedal, likewise when you start loading weight on board. Having thigh straps and improved foot bracing helps you with paddle technique, more like a sitin kayak, rather than feeling like you are trying to grip the sides of a bath tub.

Keeping the nose down by ballasting or adapting a forward lean to paddle style helps a lot too.

Fins are still stuck on strong


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Love the concept, how critical is it to get perfectly in line with hull, and how difficult? I would think you would want them as close to 100% perpendicular with hull as possible. Maybe not that difficult but I would want a plan before I start putting heat and glue down.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:08 am 
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Zen Little wrote:
Love the concept, how critical is it to get perfectly in line with hull, and how difficult? I would think you would want them as close to 100% perpendicular with hull as possible. Maybe not that difficult but I would want a plan before I start putting heat and glue down.


It will be perpendicular to whatever part of the hull you end up attaching it to, and you wont get a great range of options. This effectively give them a degree of "splay' which wont matter. Its not essential they are vertical

Do your best to get them straight front to back orientation as any deviation will have a drag effect. Though given their size shouldn't be that much. The tape grabs so its pretty much instant contact, so you just have to be careful. I got one slightly off line.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Hey guys, I didn’t realize there were so many pages about this, so I apologize. Not having my notifications on. Great to hear others have actually tried it out, with some who like its application! And thank you RR for your bonding tests.

Stringy, I will have to look for that VHB adhesive now. My fins have been rock solid as well with no edge lifting. I bet a thin smear of clear adhesive around edge after using the adhesive film can prolong keeping water from intruding, but based upon your experiments it is probably not needed. Your fin installation, and GWFL’s, appear nice and clean, unlike mine!

GWFL, your classic hull has such a wide center area that I wonder if the keels being placed so far outside might no work as well as on the Revo/Adventure hulls, but if you feel a difference in light winds it must be working a bit. Maybe adding 2 more closer to the stern (similar to some surfboards) may have a more pronounced effect?

I was recently out in very windy conditions with following seas, nothing huge, but felt more stable heading back in to shore with the fins, but I was also using my rudder and MD.

Pmpete: I can’t quantify the difference, if any, in turning response and radii, but as for feeling a difference, not at all. The revo 13 and 11 both feel like they did before the addition of the fins.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:06 am 
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Just a further note to this if you wanted bigger fins no reason you could'nt just bond a bigger section of plastic to the side of these. Though it would create more leverage on the bases, and may not be pretty., but worth a try.


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