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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:22 pm 
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Short version: I simply cannot find a leak in my 2012 Adventure mirage kayak, but I estimate at the end of a day of inshore saltwater use I have 3-5 gallons of water in the boat.

Things I have tried: taking it to the dealer (Great Outdoor Provision Co. in Raleigh, NC) 2x. The boat guy pressure tested the hull, went through it carefully, then on the second occasion told me he water tested it at the lake and saw nothing. All the hatch seals have been replaced, including the gasket for the bow hatch.

Called Hobie support directly - I believe I spoke to "Scott," but can't find my notes. I explained the issue and said I wasn't looking for a warranty repair - the boat is out of warranty, but could I at least buy a replacement hull at cost (I've bought 4 brand-new Mirage Hobies to date), so it's not like I'm a disloyal customer. I also asked if Hobie every had a field rep in the area; maybe he or she could look and try to find the leak. The answer I received is Hobie won't do anything, until I could show them the leak, and even if they agreed to a replacement hull at cost (BIG IF) it would be far out of my price range, because they don't make that older style hull, so I'd have to get the new drive, seat, etc., etc.

Sorry, this was supposed to be the short version. :)

Anyway, this is frustrating beyond belief, especially bringing the boat back from the coast to Raleigh 2x: 300mi roundtrip. It's not so much a safety issue, but the boat is slow with that much water in it, and it's a huge pain in the *ss to deal with at the end of the day.

Thoughs: stick a GoPro camera in the hull. (Scott's suggestion). Other thoughts? I'm thinking about making sure the kayak is bone-dry inside, and taping newspaper all inside the hull. Then, checking it repeatedly. Maybe I could find a pool and get in there with a fins and a mask, but my suspicion is the leak is happening, or exacerbated from the drive action. We've tried the pressure-test with soapy water, and that didn't help.

Thx all -- really want this boat fixed because it's definitely my favorite mirage kayak. I've looked to see if I could buy another hull used, and I'd probably find a hen's tooth sooner!


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2855
Location: Escondido
Leaks can certainly be evasive! Some can occur only when the boat is weighted and under way. The best way to find a leak is with a bubble test. The links below tell how to set it up -- unfortunately the pics are missing, but the info is still good enough to use.

https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ilit=leaks

https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic. ... aks#p83755

Possible leak areas at or below the water line:

Rudder lines. This happens underway when the stern squats and/or when chop / wake rolls over the stern. Water can accumulate faster than you would think through these openings, especially in rough water.
Scupper tubes. Any accident with the cart can crack or tear the thin tubes and they are not obvious, but can leak rapidly underway. The bubble test will expose this if a visual inspection doesn't.
Seat plugs. These occasionally crack and are easily missed. Water can enter through your cockpit, especially with the low riding Adventure.
Drivewell. This is a classic leak point and sometimes hard to find. A small crack can open up under stress from your Mirage Drive and admit water rapidly. Best place to look is the front tongue area where the Drive presses on the drivewell. Alternate place to look -- bottom inside wall where the back of the Mirage Drive can incorrectly contact this unreinforced area.
Click N Go Drive attachment area. This is not common, but is below the water line and should be checked out.

Be generous with your soapy solution and patient looking for bubbles. A crack that opens up during stress can be slow to show itself under static conditions.

I've also used newspapers in a dry hull and a hose. These can be useful in determining the extent of rudder line leaks, for instance, before all the water runs somewhere else in the hull.

Be thorough and you'll find the leak, especially if it is a major one. The good news is, almost any of this is repairable. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:49 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:30 am
Posts: 226
Location: Delnor Wiggins, Fl Peters Twp PA
I've struck out in looking for my leak, STK. Some dynamic event seems to be at work, but I've concluded that I'll just add a bilge pump. Everything inside the TI now goes into drybags.

Good luck.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:03 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
We have had several TI’s, most everything leaks just a little, (rudder tubes, round hatches, front hatch, etc). On a tipical outing in flat water, ( nothing severe where the bow goes under) of around 4 hrs we typically take in a couple cups of water, not a big problem. However out offshore in rough water we take in much more water, typically a couple gallons. The majority of that water comes in the front hatch. One thing we do if we plan to sail offshore in rough conditions is tape a garbage bag over the front hatch. Our boat is kinda fast so our rear deck typically fills with water, ( the water comes up thru the scupper holes, like drinking fountains), so we sometimes tape over the rear hatch as well.

If your taking in 3-5 gallons you have a major leak somewhere. What we do is lay towels into the hull in the front, middle and back inside the hull, then go out and peddle a short distance. Whichever towels get wet tells you the leak is in the front, middle or back narrowing your search area.
The inside walls on all the scupper and drain holes are very thin. If you hold your hand over each scupper hole at the bottom, then force water into the top with a garden hose, the water pressure will shoot water into the hull if there is a crack in there, (even if you can’t see the crack inside the hole), By your description, those would be the first places I would look.
Hope this helps
FE
Edit: we read about someone forgetting to put their drain plug in, it’s something most of us never think to check, the reason I’m mentioning the drain plug is the amount of water you are describing, (3-5 gallons), the hole would need to be about that size.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:11 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:48 pm
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BobAgain wrote:
I've struck out in looking for my leak, STK. Some dynamic event seems to be at work, but I've concluded that I'll just add a bilge pump. Everything inside the TI now goes into drybags.

Good luck.
Bob


I'd never trust any boat to keep the water out such that I would not need drybags at all. I learned a long time ago waterproof hatches don't exist. There is no such thing as a true "dry" bag either. (Although my new Watershed duffle is pretty close... for now!). My TI leaks, not nearly as bad as yours, but it leaks. Nothing goes inside that cant get wet. Stuff that absolutely must stay dry goes in a Pelican style drybox and is on top.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:37 am 
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Thanks all! Some great tips, and I'd not even thought of a battery-powered bilge pump as a final solution, if all else fails.

I definitely appears water could get in around the rudder lines, but...on the scale of a couple gallons?? I like the idea of checking scupper holes, cart holes, and seat-post holes by forcing water in there. If that doesn't show anything I'll try towels/newspaper inside the hull, and try to narrow it down, then work on that area with a bubble test.

I don't care about in-hull storage stuff getting wet, and on my other 3 boats, there's always a pint or two of water - no big deal. But this volume of saltwater slows the kayak, and makes it tough to pull up the bank of a saltwater creek, and it'd tedious to empty since the drain is awkwardly located.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:50 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yea, you have to find the problem and fix it, something is not right, not safe as is.

Yes with enough water in the hull, the bow will sink, (the boat goes vertical (like a bobber)), when vertical it's near impossible to recover, (this has happened to us a couple times). We couldn't lift the bow, (too heavy), I'm talkin the TI here, don't know much about the AI. A little safer with the AMA's on, but when full of water with AMA's on the boat doesn't move much, no chance at all against wind and current, (like offshore).

Keep looking.


FE


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:55 pm
Posts: 87
Location: New Gretna, New Jersey
Put the kayak on a couple sawhorses, level it so it will sit like it floats and start filling it with water slowly. A helper would be good to control the hose while you look underneath. Block the boat so it doesn't fall to one side or the other. Pay attention to the cart scupper holes especially. It should not take much filling to show the leak. I assume you have carefully checked the bottom throughout for deep scratches fore and aft. I wouldn't fill it more than 5" at the center hatch. the tail drag point sometimes can wear through. the bow can take some hits on landing. You can do this ! :D

stk wrote:
Short version: I simply cannot find a leak in my 2012 Adventure mirage kayak, but I estimate at the end of a day of inshore saltwater use I have 3-5 gallons of water in the boat.

Things I have tried: taking it to the dealer (Great Outdoor Provision Co. in Raleigh, NC) 2x. The boat guy pressure tested the hull, went through it carefully, then on the second occasion told me he water tested it at the lake and saw nothing. All the hatch seals have been replaced, including the gasket for the bow hatch.

Called Hobie support directly - I believe I spoke to "Scott," but can't find my notes. I explained the issue and said I wasn't looking for a warranty repair - the boat is out of warranty, but could I at least buy a replacement hull at cost (I've bought 4 brand-new Mirage Hobies to date), so it's not like I'm a disloyal customer. I also asked if Hobie every had a field rep in the area; maybe he or she could look and try to find the leak. The answer I received is Hobie won't do anything, until I could show them the leak, and even if they agreed to a replacement hull at cost (BIG IF) it would be far out of my price range, because they don't make that older style hull, so I'd have to get the new drive, seat, etc., etc.

Sorry, this was supposed to be the short version. :)

Anyway, this is frustrating beyond belief, especially bringing the boat back from the coast to Raleigh 2x: 300mi roundtrip. It's not so much a safety issue, but the boat is slow with that much water in it, and it's a huge pain in the *ss to deal with at the end of the day.

Thoughs: stick a GoPro camera in the hull. (Scott's suggestion). Other thoughts? I'm thinking about making sure the kayak is bone-dry inside, and taping newspaper all inside the hull. Then, checking it repeatedly. Maybe I could find a pool and get in there with a fins and a mask, but my suspicion is the leak is happening, or exacerbated from the drive action. We've tried the pressure-test with soapy water, and that didn't help.

Thx all -- really want this boat fixed because it's definitely my favorite mirage kayak. I've looked to see if I could buy another hull used, and I'd probably find a hen's tooth sooner!

_________________
Hobie Fishing Team Rider
Stay Fit, Go Fish, and Have Fun
SpinfisherBob
http://www.youtube.com/user/SpinfisherBob


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 5:47 pm
Posts: 5
I would do this since nothing else has found the leak. Fill it with colored water, a color that contrast with your hull color. I have a Papaya Gold so I used DARK purple.I used RIT dye but now I have a purple inside boat! I put a couple of gallons in the boat. I made a plug to fit the drain plug (found one a a boat store) drilled it and put a schrader valve in it (epoxied it in the plug). With the kayak on the ground I pressurized it as I rolled the boat on it's side, then upside down and on the other side. I found purple in the bottom of the seat wells (one almost cracked off). Epoxied a cap over them and now it dry or mostly so.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
You know the leak is below the waterline. If it were me I would put tape over all the hatches and the front hatch, (basically sealing them), and maybe shove some play doh into the rudder tubes, (something removable).
Then tape in some tubing into the drain plug hole, (motorcycle jacks suggestion), maybe with a shop vac or air mattress inflator, then flip the boat over and go over everything with a brush and soapy water. If you don’t tape over all the top stuff, you can’t get enough pressure to do anything, (if you tried it before, likely the reason it didn’t work is you lost too much air thru the other openings).
Air is exactly 1000 times less dense than water, so any leak air will pass thru easily, but water not so easily, so don’t fill the hull with water, ( doesn’t work).
The bubble/air test is the best way, but you need pressure inside the hull for it to work, basically ya gotta seal all the above water openings.
Hope this works
FE
Edit: however the purple dye in water will likely work, but you would need an air compressor and way more pressure, ( were talkin 15-20 psi to get the water to flow), the other method you only need 3-4 psi.
Just tryin to describe the science part, and maybe why it didn’t work before.

Edit again: BTW leaking 5 gallons in one outing has to a huge hole, no way could a small crack or rudder tubes leak that much water. Even a crack in the mirage well can’t posiibly leak that much water into the boat. The only place I know where you can get that much water thru is a split scupper tube, no other place is possible.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:30 am
Posts: 226
Location: Delnor Wiggins, Fl Peters Twp PA
I got between 2 and 3 gallons one day while peddling in absolutely flat water w my brother in law. NOTHING over the gunwales. Once we got the TI home and dried completely, we put a sheet down on the lawn, set the TI on top of it, and then filled it with water. Nothing came out.

I think that it must be a dynamic leak of some sort.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:38 am 
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 1:27 am
Posts: 344
If it happens on flat water unloaded, just as readily as rough water you can rule out hatches and rudder lines, which leaves drive well, daggerboard slot and scuppers. Tie rags/towels around each one and see if any of them get wet. Thats how I found my hairline drive well crack which was invisible and did not leak under static tests.

Does it happen heading into waves or with following sea/at anchor?

Do you get water swilling into open centre hatch from flooded seat well?

Don't just put up with it, or it could let go big time. Odds are you will get a little bit from multiple sources but a whole lot from one.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 10:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:20 am
Posts: 41
We will see! Heading down to the coast in an hour or so, and will experiment with some of these suggestions. :)

I'll update the thread for sure. Truly thank everyone for their input.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:46 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:46 am
Posts: 35
I had a similar problem. The bubble test didn't show the leak. But setting it up on sawhorses and filling the hull with water did the trick. I would demand that hobie do something for you. It's ridiculous that a 6-year-old boat has a defective hull. Especially in the Hobie price range. It is not your fault they changed the boat.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:41 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Auckland NZ
I found a leak in one of my Hobies by filling it with water over my stone-tiled patio. The hole was a tiny crack in the drivewell area which was so small it was still really difficult to find but when on the water being pedalled it let in a huge amount of water (like half a boatful). Hope this helps.


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