Return to Hobie.com
Hobie Forums
It is currently Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:03 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:30 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:46 am
Posts: 35
I just received a strange message from Hobie:

"This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=11&p=301824#p301824 .

This is really getting old. I am not going to put up with blatant Hobie bashing in multiple forum topics on this site. This is kinda getting to be like your old days in the KFS forums. You and Riddler... geeze. What you are doing is evident to other forums users as well and they too are bored with the attitude."

I looked over the forums for any kind of policy or explanation of the forum rules, what a warning is, and so on. Nothing I can find.

I also took a look at the Hobie "product support" page. This is what it says:

"Product Support
Our dealers are experts and the best source of support for your Hobie product. For more help, browse our support resources below, or get ideas and solutions from other owners and Hobie staff in the forums."

Clearly, Hobie made the forums a part of their product support, and intended the flow of information, not only between Hobie staff, but between and from "other owners" as well. I'm sure that things like personal attacks can't be tolerated. But product negatives should certainly be open to discussion. And any attempt by moderators to limit that discussion must be done with extreme care since this is part of their product support. If we are encouraged to "get ideas" are these to be restricted to only those ideas that the forum moderators like?

If anyone has info, please share it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:44 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 12564
Location: Oceanside, California
Kross57

You understand where the warning I sent comes from.

The purpose of our forums is to share information... Helpful. Productive. Constructive. Informative. Complaints are welcome as well. We learn a lot from forum feedback, but constant negativity is not reasonable or acceptable.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:04 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:46 am
Posts: 35
Discussing flaws in kayaks is not negative, it is either opinion based on experience, or simple fact. Whether it is positive or negative depends on your point of view. A complaint can be helpful, productive, constructive,, and informative. They are not a separate item, as you seem to think. Quite frankly, from my viewpoint, the most negativity I see is from you.

If I have broken any forum rules, which ones? Where are they stated? I would be happy to follow them, if only they existed. Please point them out for all of us.

For the record, constant negativity would mean that I have never said anything positive. Is that your position?

As I told you in a private message, I will be taking this up with the Hobie company. I hope to get some solid answers there. Your comments make no sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:27 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 12564
Location: Oceanside, California
Quote:
A complaint can be helpful, productive, constructive, and informative.


Totally agree as I stated...

Quote:
The purpose of our forums is to share information... Helpful. Productive. Constructive. Informative. Complaints are welcome as well. We learn a lot from forum feedback

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:35 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:01 am
Posts: 185
Location: Orlando!
Whether or not I agree with the course of action that Hobie takes concerning yours or other's complaints, I think in general they're very candid about allowing criticisms of their product to remain on their boards until that criticism takes a certain tone, whether or not that tone becomes exacerbated by say certain ludicrous fan boy retorts.

Personally, I would not tolerate it past a certain point either.

_________________
Tandem Island V2 "The Red Pill"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:11 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:39 am
Posts: 106
I`ve noticed that folks are more irritable these days than saaay 20 years ago. Is it too many pollutants in the air? Hate to see what it will be 20 years from now. I do ok until another kayak gets right behind me. :evil:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:08 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2605
Location: High Point, NC
Obviously, constructive criticism is helpful to any company that wishes constant and continued product improvement. There is no better path to improvement that the experience that comes from the users of a product.

However... during the normal course of forum participation, you would expect the comments from product users to run the gamut from praise, enjoyment, questions, experience and yes, even criticism, to be found in somewhat equal amounts. When a member's comments are almost uniquely critical to a fault, it is not outside the bounds and common sense of any company to reign in such participation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:43 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:39 am
Posts: 106
This gentle man is a genius. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNzLB8-ghvw Drop the mic.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:05 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2907
Location: Escondido
kross57 wrote:
I just received a strange message from Hobie:

"This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=11&p=301824#p301824 .

This is really getting old. I am not going to put up with blatant Hobie bashing in multiple forum topics on this site. This is kinda getting to be like your old days in the KFS forums. You and Riddler... geeze. What you are doing is evident to other forums users as well and they too are bored with the attitude."

If anyone has info, please share it.
Sure, I'll be happy to share my opinion. I'm really amazed -- that Hobie didn't can you sometime ago when you were on your deleted name calling binge. Being a member of the forum is a privilege, not a right, and Hobie has tried really hard to endure your crap. Bashing? Just talking factually, right? Lets see, in less than 3 dozen posts you've bashed Hobie's hatches, handling, boat design, plastic formula, Vantage seats (you don't even have one), warranty and Hobie's business practice. Not only have you bashed products you don't own, you make up your own "facts" to generate your bashing.

Let me give you an example.

kross57 wrote:
Even the worst warrantys for other kayak companies are 3 years.
As one who appeared to have done an industry wide survey this is obviously a lie.
Image
This warranty doesn't hold a candle to Hobie's. Does Hobie require that you register within 2 weeks to get the warranty? Nope. Does Hobie even require you to register this boat? Nope. Do you even have to be the original owner or have a receipt? Nope.

Quote:
Hobie has the worst warranty in the industry. Ocean Kayak? Lifetime. Pelican? Lifetime. Wilderness Systems? Lifetime. Perception? Lifetime. Cobra Kayaks? Ten years. Hobie? 2 years???

Looking at all these other great "lifetime" warranties that you're bragging about. There is no warranty for non registered, non receipt, non original owners. Plus, Look at the list of exclusions -- essentially whatever they want. A LIMITED, excludable "lifetime" warranty that's mostly marketing hype?

So Hobie is the only one what I know of that actually warrants the product against almost anything, period. Your fake facts attack -- totally warrantless and seemingly designed for no other purpose than to deliberately bash. To add insult to injury, after Hobie gave you a brand new boat after yours was well out of warranty, your comment was predictably
Quote:
So, I'm not very impressed by the "good faith".
Incredible!

That was just one example, but is typical of your M.O.

I don't really understand, with all the boats you've allegedly had and complimented on this forum, why you even have a Hobie instead of one of these other great boats? You've taken full advantage of every kindness they've given you and bashed them for it. I'm only shocked that Hobie has let you get away with it! :o


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:13 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:46 am
Posts: 35
And, if we get rid of what seems like your hostility, we now have a discussion. What's wrong with that? I NEVER said I was absolutely right about everything. And I can change my mind if someone has a compelling reason for me to do so. That is NOT bashing, or bitterness. That's a valid exchange.

So, as far as the warranty issues, I will look into the points you made and respond.

In fact, in the next few weeks I will take every one of the issues I raised - hatch leaks, handling without the rudder, soft plastic, hull cracks, warranty - and explain my concerns in detail. I will be happy to consider and discuss alternate points of view and different opinions. Again, what could be wrong with that?

My suggestion is to keep right on posting your views, while keeping in mind that none of us knows all there is to know about Hobie kayaks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:38 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:46 am
Posts: 35
Roadrunner wrote:
kross57 wrote:
I just received a strange message from Hobie:

"This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=11&p=301824#p301824 .

This is really getting old. I am not going to put up with blatant Hobie bashing in multiple forum topics on this site. This is kinda getting to be like your old days in the KFS forums. You and Riddler... geeze. What you are doing is evident to other forums users as well and they too are bored with the attitude."

If anyone has info, please share it.
Sure, I'll be happy to share my opinion. I'm really amazed -- that Hobie didn't can you sometime ago when you were on your deleted name calling binge. Being a member of the forum is a privilege, not a right, and Hobie has tried really hard to endure your crap. Bashing? Just talking factually, right? Lets see, in less than 3 dozen posts you've bashed Hobie's hatches, handling, boat design, plastic formula, Vantage seats (you don't even have one), warranty and Hobie's business practice. Not only have you bashed products you don't own, you make up your own "facts" to generate your bashing.

Let me give you an example.

kross57 wrote:
Even the worst warrantys for other kayak companies are 3 years.
As one who appeared to have done an industry wide survey this is obviously a lie.
Image
This warranty doesn't hold a candle to Hobie's. Does Hobie require that you register within 2 weeks to get the warranty? Nope. Does Hobie even require you to register this boat? Nope. Do you even have to be the original owner or have a receipt? Nope.

Quote:
Hobie has the worst warranty in the industry. Ocean Kayak? Lifetime. Pelican? Lifetime. Wilderness Systems? Lifetime. Perception? Lifetime. Cobra Kayaks? Ten years. Hobie? 2 years???

Looking at all these other great "lifetime" warranties that you're bragging about. There is no warranty for non registered, non receipt, non original owners. Plus, Look at the list of exclusions -- essentially whatever they want. A LIMITED, excludable "lifetime" warranty that's mostly marketing hype?

So Hobie is the only one what I know of that actually warrants the product against almost anything, period. Your fake facts attack -- totally warrantless and seemingly designed for no other purpose than to deliberately bash. To add insult to injury, after Hobie gave you a brand new boat after yours was well out of warranty, your comment was predictably
Quote:
So, I'm not very impressed by the "good faith".
Incredible!

That was just one example, but is typical of your M.O.

I don't really understand, with all the boats you've allegedly had and complimented on this forum, why you even have a Hobie instead of one of these other great boats? You've taken full advantage of every kindness they've given you and bashed them for it. I'm only shocked that Hobie has let you get away with it! :o


I did miss the Native warranty, because it is VERY hard to locate. That in itself is a problem. However... Here is the Hobie warranty info for comparison.

"Warranty
Rest assured that when you purchase your new Hobie from an authorized Hobie dealer it comes with a 2-Year Warranty. The Warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, improper storage, or running into stuff. The Warranty covers defects in the materials, manufacturing and design.

To Obtain Warranty Service
Within 30 days of discovering a defect, take your Hobie product, along with proof of purchase (sales receipt or registration card) to the authorized Hobie dealer from whom you purchased your boat, unless you have moved or are traveling. In that case, take it to the nearest authorized Hobie dealer."

So, yes, you absolutely have to be the original owner purchasing the kayak from a Hobie dealer. That means when you wrote "Do you even have to be the original owner or have a receipt? Nope." you were wrong. I hope you can admit your mistakes as readily as I can.

In addition, my understanding is that the dealer registers these kayaks for you. The dealer told me my new hull has already been registered and I was told to hang onto my receipt. Therefore, it is the same. That still means Native's warranty is equivalent to Hobie's so there is another warranty that is no better. My bad.

As far as the limits on the lifetime warranties, Hobie's warranty comes with limitations also. See above. They all do.

The reason Hobie extends an unwritten policy covering hull cracks is (IMO) the hull cracks are a known, common defect. If they didn't cover them, lots of folks would shy away from buying Hobies. I think I've said that before. It's a good business move. And nobody "gave" me anything. I paid $350 for the new hull. It was one year out of their very brief warranty. Matt Miller tells me they typically take care of hull cracks out to 5 or 6 years. I have asked repeatedly how long I should expect these hulls to last. I'm still waiting for an answer. It's a valid question.

Remember, an unwritten policy is NOT a warranty. Native and other kayak makers may have this type of policy too. I have no idea. But, again, an unwritten policy is not a warranty.

To address your comments about owning various kayaks, I still own those kayaks in addition to my Hobie. I have reported problems to other makers over the years, since no kayak is perfect. Their response has been, in some cases, to either change the kayaks, stop selling various models, or include info in their marketing of these boats that describes the flaw. As one example, I own a Kaskazi Marlin. Like the Revo 11, it handled poorly without the rudder, although not as badly as the Revo. I explained this to Kaskazi. Now, when you look at the description of the Marlin on their site it says "It has significant rocker on the stern in order to make it very responsive to the rudder, therefore it tracks well with the rudder but not without the rudder." Great response and super honesty. In no case have I ever been accused of "bashing" for doing this. The reaction here was quite a surprise.

I guess I now have to say this after every post on this forum. None of what I have written above is "bashing". It is all as factual as I can make it, or simple opinion based on my experience. I have not intentionally insulted anyone or anything.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2991
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I just found a cool feature in the forum settings called friend/foe settings under options.

Hypothetically speaking here if someone were to have a ‘personal extremely strong total loathing distain’ for some hypothetical member on the forum, for example, you can always go into settings.

I’m not suggesting anything here, just highlighting a cool forum feature I just stumbled on to, that’s all.
FE

Edit: I meant to say ‘un-empathetic’ in quotes above, sorry for the grammer mistake.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:41 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:58 am
Posts: 47
Roadrunner NAILED it on the head! This Kross character is a real pain in the arse. I can only imagine what it would be like having to deal with him as a customer. Its not just that he has bashed Hobie and their products relentlessly but he has attacked several forum members on a personal level as well. He called Fusioneng ignorant...really...Fusioneng??? I dont even know Fusioneng but i have been on this forum for several years and I cant imagine a more decent down to earth and intelligent guy then Fusion! This DBag should sell all his Hobie "crap" and move on to greener pastures.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:47 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Posts: 150
Location: New Hampshire
kross57 -- You do understand that warranties are marketing tools? Any company knows they will make mistakes and reputable companies will fix those problems. Any company also knows that some people will try them on with questionable claims. You want a warranty that covers the first and denies the second and is written in a way to attract customers. Most customers understand this equation and will accept, maybe not happily but will accept, the decision of the company. A certain percentage of customers won't accept that the company doesn't cover everything. For a recent company discussing warranty issues, take a look at L.L. Bean.

For example, any product left in the sun will deteriorate. Guess what happens with any boat? It's out in the sun, in a brutal environment, and it will eventually fail. No company will promise a lifetime, unlimited warranty. It might end up later, but they will go broke at some point. Some people don't understand that sun damage can occur very quickly even if the manufacturer does everything right if the product receives no protection.

Pointing out that some Hobie products fail is no more meaningful than pointing out that some cars break, some planes break, and my list could go on forever. Pointing out that sometimes Hobie will not cover the costs of repair to that product is also not meaningful. To assume that all claims are Hobie's responsibility is illogical. Some people don't take care of the things they buy. I don't want to buy a product where I'm paying for those people to have their product fixed. It's going to cost more.

You should read warranties before you buy. If you don't like Hobie's warranty, why did you buy the product?

I'm a moderator on another site. We have posters like you that do not provide any benefit to the community. If I was in Matt's position on this forum, I'd be thinking of banning you. Web sites are not free, but are paid for by their owners. The owner has the right to impose restrictions, even if they are not reasonable. Your goal here seems to be mainly to bash Hobie. Why should Hobie let you?

Jim Clark-Dawe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:46 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:46 am
Posts: 35
jclarkdawe wrote:
kross57 -- You do understand that warranties are marketing tools? Any company knows they will make mistakes and reputable companies will fix those problems. Any company also knows that some people will try them on with questionable claims. You want a warranty that covers the first and denies the second and is written in a way to attract customers. Most customers understand this equation and will accept, maybe not happily but will accept, the decision of the company. A certain percentage of customers won't accept that the company doesn't cover everything. For a recent company discussing warranty issues, take a look at L.L. Bean.

For example, any product left in the sun will deteriorate. Guess what happens with any boat? It's out in the sun, in a brutal environment, and it will eventually fail. No company will promise a lifetime, unlimited warranty. It might end up later, but they will go broke at some point. Some people don't understand that sun damage can occur very quickly even if the manufacturer does everything right if the product receives no protection.

Pointing out that some Hobie products fail is no more meaningful than pointing out that some cars break, some planes break, and my list could go on forever. Pointing out that sometimes Hobie will not cover the costs of repair to that product is also not meaningful. To assume that all claims are Hobie's responsibility is illogical. Some people don't take care of the things they buy. I don't want to buy a product where I'm paying for those people to have their product fixed. It's going to cost more.

You should read warranties before you buy. If you don't like Hobie's warranty, why did you buy the product?

I'm a moderator on another site. We have posters like you that do not provide any benefit to the community. If I was in Matt's position on this forum, I'd be thinking of banning you. Web sites are not free, but are paid for by their owners. The owner has the right to impose restrictions, even if they are not reasonable. Your goal here seems to be mainly to bash Hobie. Why should Hobie let you?

Jim Clark-Dawe


Jim, I appreciate the response. as far as why I purchased a Hobie, I researched them pretty well. Reliability is key for me, so I was concerned about their reputation for hull cracks. But I was assured that this issue had been corrected and they were a thing of the past. My mistake. In my past experience hull failures are extremely rare and anything else that might go wrong is a cheap fix. But my point about the short warranty is not that it was a surprise. I was pointing out that covering a defective hull for five or six years is pretty much an industry standard. Nothing wonderful about that.

To answer your other question, Hobie lists these forms as a part of their product support. The notion that customers would only use such support as a way of complimenting Hobie is quite bizarre. Yet, apparently, I can be chastised for listing product flaws but calling me a dbag is fine. Strange way of running a product support forum. One might think they were trying to prevent any mention of kayak flaws.

I still fail to see how describing product flaws is bashing. Lots of companies accept online reviews of their products, good or bad. And they somehow survive.

Just one more point. I am extremely pleased that folks take things like faulty cars and plane crashes seriously. To me those are kind of important.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group