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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:05 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
Kross57 has been banned. Sorry to put you all through that.

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Hobie Cat USA
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:40 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Posts: 237
Location: New Hampshire
Matt -- Sorry you had to learn how to ban someone. It's the big downside to being a moderator. Every so often there comes along someone who just won't go along with the program. It's clear Hobie has gotten a lot of complaints on this forum. It's clear Hobie resolves some of these successfully and others it can't. (This is consistent with any company -- you can't satisfy everybody.)

If I were to recommend a successful corporate run forum, Hobie would be one of the ones I recommend.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:55 pm
Posts: 65
mmiller wrote:
Kross57

You understand where the warning I sent comes from.

The purpose of our forums is to share information... Helpful. Productive. Constructive. Informative. Complaints are welcome as well. We learn a lot from forum feedback, but constant negativity is not reasonable or acceptable.


I think if someone shares their experience they are being helpful. He's a buyer of your products Matt Miller, he has refereed other people to buy your companies products. These are facts and now you are going to ban him and give out warnings? I even have a history of blow ups and pm wars with Kross on other forums....but we agree on one of many things....the products for "SOME" of us Salty anglers are atrocious. It's not just Hobie, it's all manufacturers. We know freshwater anglers will out number salty 20-1 it was only a matter of time before this happened but you are leaving some of the crusty salty anglers with little or no choice...or you took something that was decent and made it worse.

You might as well ban me too Matt Miller, I am not part of the get along gang where when products are not up to our standard or even catered towards Salty anglers any more we just sit back and say nothing? You call us in the "minority" because of the way Kross and myself feel and that's fine. Good for you, I hope you continue to sell your products and do well. I now regret recommending any angler to buy any of your products.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:40 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:55 pm
Posts: 65
jclarkdawe wrote:
Matt -- Sorry you had to learn how to ban someone. It's the big downside to being a moderator. Every so often there comes along someone who just won't go along with the program. It's clear Hobie has gotten a lot of complaints on this forum. It's clear Hobie resolves some of these successfully and others it can't. (This is consistent with any company -- you can't satisfy everybody.)

If I were to recommend a successful corporate run forum, Hobie would be one of the ones I recommend.

Jim Clark-Dawe


Go along with the program? Kross has shared his experience to improve kayak design. Some may not like how that message is delivered but that's the truth. These are facts.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:55 pm
Posts: 65
Here's my 2018 Revo 13 with Improved Seat. :D

Imagepic upload


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Posts: 237
Location: New Hampshire
the riddler wrote:
jclarkdawe wrote:
Matt -- Sorry you had to learn how to ban someone. It's the big downside to being a moderator. Every so often there comes along someone who just won't go along with the program. It's clear Hobie has gotten a lot of complaints on this forum. It's clear Hobie resolves some of these successfully and others it can't. (This is consistent with any company -- you can't satisfy everybody.)

If I were to recommend a successful corporate run forum, Hobie would be one of the ones I recommend.

Jim Clark-Dawe


Go along with the program? Kross has shared his experience to improve kayak design. Some may not like how that message is delivered but that's the truth. These are facts.


The program is that constant negativity is not welcome on any forum.

As a moderator, I allow criticism of the site I'm a moderator on. I'll try to explain why what a member sees a problem is the way it is, or will work with the site owner to fix the problem. I like people who complain. They are the ones that help you improve. Otherwise you accept the status quo and that's not a good thing. But the person needs to accept that some problems can not be solved and be able to move on.

When a member shows up and seems to engage entirely in complaining, much as you might regret it, you've got to take steps to protect the forum. Otherwise your forum becomes as toxic as a septic tank. A forum is a community and has to function as such in order to survive. If you allow too much that is bad to happen on a forum, you start losing the good members.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:38 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:55 pm
Posts: 65
You don't need to educate me about forums and how they thrive or how they fall. Especially about fishing forums or kayak fishing forums. You know how forums crash? When the fishing becomes tough or people get married and have kids or work overtime. Forums also crash when you can't talk about your experiences.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:56 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:58 am
Posts: 53
the riddler wrote:
jclarkdawe wrote:
Matt -- Sorry you had to learn how to ban someone. It's the big downside to being a moderator. Every so often there comes along someone who just won't go along with the program. It's clear Hobie has gotten a lot of complaints on this forum. It's clear Hobie resolves some of these successfully and others it can't. (This is consistent with any company -- you can't satisfy everybody.)

If I were to recommend a successful corporate run forum, Hobie would be one of the ones I recommend.

Jim Clark-Dawe


Go along with the program? Kross has shared his experience to improve kayak design. Some may not like how that message is delivered but that's the truth. These are facts.


Funny how two people can see things COMPLETELY differently. His sole purpose seemed to be to bash Hobie and convince others not to buy Hobie products. Oh, and also to ridicule and belittle others on this forum.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:55 pm
Posts: 65
jeffreydc wrote:
the riddler wrote:
jclarkdawe wrote:
Matt -- Sorry you had to learn how to ban someone. It's the big downside to being a moderator. Every so often there comes along someone who just won't go along with the program. It's clear Hobie has gotten a lot of complaints on this forum. It's clear Hobie resolves some of these successfully and others it can't. (This is consistent with any company -- you can't satisfy everybody.)

If I were to recommend a successful corporate run forum, Hobie would be one of the ones I recommend.

Jim Clark-Dawe


Go along with the program? Kross has shared his experience to improve kayak design. Some may not like how that message is delivered but that's the truth. These are facts.


Funny how two people can see things COMPLETELY differently. His sole purpose seemed to be to bash Hobie and convince others not to buy Hobie products. Oh, and also to ridicule and belittle others on this forum.



Being mean to someone I would think goes against forum rules... that would be another matter and one I have no interest in.

Having sub par platforms for the big water is a problem. I don’t want to bash Hobie but I would like to voice my concerns over the seat in the R 13. I have to believe the motives behind Kross posts is to help voice his opinions on getting better platforms with better seats for those of us who fish the bigger water and do not want a high center of gravity. We would like to see improvements to the hull. Adding slight rocker, adding a harder chine to help with tracking. We all know when in following seas with the Revo 13 you can have problems. I am not a kayaking engineer but this can be solved....going higher is not the solution. It makes it worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:55 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Cedar Key, FL
I'll add a couple of random thoughts FWIW ...

I'm sympathetic to the argument that the Vantage seat is not the perfect solution for all uses (in my case, salt water sailing).

I never had a problem with Kross, but I did cringe when I read a couple of his posts.

Full Disclosure: I'm a commercial litigator and for several years I moderated a webform dealing with religion and politics, so my skin is pretty think.

I can see both sides. There was some circling of the wagons when he first started in on his complaints re: soft plastic. I get his initial frustration. On the other hand, I think he pushed back too hard and got personal. The response was not proportionate.

When I was moderating, I doubt that I would have infracted Kross for those posts (unless I had given very clear PM warnings) and I certainly would not have dropped the ban-hammer, but that was a rough and tumble debate forum. This is a form maintained and branded by commercial entity and the rules/standards are completely different.

I think the lessons to be learned are: (1) This isn't reddit, in other words,this isn't an anything goes free speech zone; and (2) most folks who cruise by here regularly do so because we like the product (self selection bias), but on occasion when someone shows up with a problem we go into "defend Hobie" mode instead of listening to the complaints, which may not be helpful.

Again, just my 2 cents.

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