Future Hobie platforms suitable for rough water?

I am just curious to hear where Hobie stands for the future of platforms suitable for rougher water. We understand that kayaks with comfortable chairs, wide heavy kayaks, with tons of freeboard are the market right now. I was just curious when you will decide to make products for those of us who need lighter weight, Mirage drives with lower centers of gravity, and less volume?

Personally I found the 2014 Revo 13 to be somewhere suitable and was hoping that model with be improved especially in rougher conditions like "following" seas. Will Hobie ever think about addressing this need for the customer base?

Sadly for now, and it's not just Hobie, there are no products for those of us who are looking for the above type of platforms. I am now forced to look back at performance paddle kayaks because there are no products currently from anyone with a pedal or prop drive system. I've been using your products since 2011. Tough to go back to paddle but I have no choice.

Thanks

Problem with skinny pedal kayaks in rough water is that you really need a paddle to help balance and brace. So there is a limit as to how skinny you can go. Big following seas are always going to be a problem if all you have to stop the back being suddenly swung around is a rudder. Nothing is as effective as a strong stern rudder move with a paddle if you are really being pushed about.

Totally agree! We lose the rudder can’t control, it better paddle well. I feel the revo could be lowered beyond what the 2014 Revos had with the old seat.

I feel a 14’ model with a 27” beam and lowered seat with venturi drain or venturi drain incorporated into the scupper plug would be a possibility.

Following waves dont "push" you as such unless they are breaking. It is more the nose being retarded as it digs in, the 'hill" gravity of the wave, combined with lack of rear resistance as stern comes out of water causes back to not slow at same rate, so it swings into broach. A pedal drive can only propel you in the direction hull is pointing, ie not where you want to go, so it is not countering the broach, and to a degree preventing the nose from being swung back on to line by its own lateral resistance. That is left solely to the rudder, which maybe partially, or wholly in extreme cases, out of the water. When paddling you can adjust your strokes to the direction you ant to go Rather than just powering forward. plus the extra bracing that comes with it. Strong rudder strokes with a paddle are guaranteed to be in the water and can be more agressive

TBH in the revo 16 paddling in the rough is fun (with thigh braces) being able to push and brace off the waves, rather than just hanging on for grim death. Dropping a modified skeg into the daggerboard slot helps to dampen the stability without hindering manoeuvrability that comes with just using the rear rudder as a skeg (being hand operated it can't function as a rudder when paddling).

If a revo 16 had more rocker up front it would handle following seas better, but would be not as fast/efficient in normal conditions as every foot of rocker is a foot that is not effective waterline in normal conditions, it's just hull forward overhang. On that note most pedal kayaks, especially when carrying a load, are not trimmed right so the bow wave is not starting at the pointy end but some way back as the nose bounces out of the water, causing a blunter bow wave under the nose rather than at the nose, totally negating the "knife edge" prows of the revos.

Only time you want to be arse down is in following seas, this can be helped a bit by reclining your seat more in those conditions, shifting your torso back. Then sitting more forward in flat conditions

I have 33 years of whitewater kayaking experience, and when I'm in a kayak, I want my butt to be as close to the bottom of the kayak as possible, for maximum stability. I don't want a high seat position.

When pedaling in following waves which might surf my Revolution forward, either when I'm away from shore or when coming in through surf, I pull out my Mirage Drive and paddle the kayak, and clip in thigh straps if I have them with me, because (a) I can brace and rudder with my paddle, and (b) because a Mirage Drive's fins can flip your kayak if you get surfed forwards. A surfboard has fins at its stern, and the fins tend to turn the board so it is running straight down the fall line of a wave. The fins on a Mirage Drive are located about a third of the way back from the bow, so if a Mirage Drive kayak gets surfed forwards, the kayak tends to want to turn 180 degrees so the fins are towards the rear. However, what actually happens is that after a Mirage Drive kayak surfs forward for a minute, the fins tend to make the bow of the kayak veer suddenly towards the right or the left. Then the fins catch water sideways, and the wave flips the kayak towards the beach, particularly if the wave is breaking. And you can't side-surf in towards shore on a pile if your Mirage Drive fins are sticking straight down.

To reduce the chances of getting flipped by your fins, you can try to develop a reflex of pushing one foot forward to bring the fins up against the bottom of your kayak as soon as you get surfed forwards or turned sideways. But this action is counterintuitive. The automatic reflex is to push equally with both feet if your kayak gets surfed forwards, which leaves the fins sticking straight down, ready to flip the kayak. If I don't think I can pedal in between waves all the way to shore and not get caught and surfed forward, I pull my Mirage drive and paddle in. If I get surfed forward when paddling, I can rudder to surf straight in, I can back paddle to let the wave pass beneath me, or I can let the kayak turn sideways, brace into the pile, and side surf in.

To start, I really appreciate the knowledge that gets shared on this forum ... even though I just spent an hour of my life that I'll never get back trying to figure out how the "rocker" impacts boat design ... some mysteries should remain mysterious.

In the gulf, which doesn't have much tidal wave action, following seas are almost always a function of wind. To avoid jibing, I'll pick a line that keeps the wind a little to one side which also tends to help manage the following seas; meaning that I'm not guessing which side the swells will be coming from.

In those conditions, I keep the mirage fins up against the hull unless I need to power through a trough (in a following wind/seas with the mast so far forward and the less than sleek bow of the Outback, hitting the side of the trough can stop the bow and broach the boat).

I may not be using the right terms, but I'm wondering if I'm "doing it right". That technique is a result of trial and error and not any formal training in sailing.

Thanks again to all the experienced sailors and kayakers who share their knowledge.

_________________
2014 Outback
2016 Outfitter
2017 Sport

Agree with this. I have trim tabs on my first 21' deep vee and in following seas I have to have the stern down or else I will bow steer. It's possible the Revo 13 is "bow" steering. I like what was said about some bow rocker to help get that up.

In following seas with the Revo 13 I have to take out the drive and use the paddle. The waves will break in following seas which is why I started this thread...small following seas are really now a problem for me. Thanks for the tip on thigh braces, I have never tried but will consider it.

We have always been avid kayak sailers on Hobie mirage boats, (several models), our fav was always the older revo 13, with the older seats, (don’t know much about the newer seats).
We alway like to sail out into the gulf just offshore.
Just offshore there are constant breakers about 1/4 to 1/2 miles offshore, ( which I think create our powdered quartz beaches, ( the quartz comes from Wisconsin I’m told).
We liked to kayak sail out there in the breakers. We discovered when coming back in, ( following seas), that the motion of the water on the surface can be faster than the boat is going, reversing the rudder actions, turn left and the boat goes right from the water pushing the rudder, because the water flow over the rudder is backwards, ( from stern toward bow). You naturally when the boat goes left, you apply left rudder, ( human nature), making matters worse.
Just something we observed that’s all. The rudder only works when you are moving faster than the water, ( the kayak sails help keep the boat moving, IMO)
Lol, having that knowledge didn’t prevent us from flipping a lot in the breakers, but we always had a blast.
Kind of like the surfing but we only catch one in ten waves right at best, ( lol).
FE

Obviously these only work when paddling. What I use are simple tie down cam straps. Looped beween front tankwell padeye and padeye just in front of side pocket. I have replaced existing padeyes with hobies XL padeyes, and added a screw on one on the other side. If you pull the strap tight when not using them it sits flush along side of yak and doesn't get in the way. As I always wear pants/leggings I dont need any bulky thigh padding

This is great information! I am surprised we haven't heard yet from one of the best kayak and sailboat surfers around these parts:

I understand the concept of sailing by the lee, but assumed that boomless rig would be ill suited; it sounds like my assumption was not a good one. In my particular situation, the Outback with a sailing rudder can get turned very quickly in a following sea and it seems like sailing by the lee is begging for a jibe until you get the feel of it. I'm also running with a larger 3 sq meter sail and a rocket launcher, so avoiding a jibe is usually near the top of my list.

But now you've piqued my interest ... I'll give it try next time I'm in calmer conditions.

_________________
2014 Outback
2016 Outfitter
2017 Sport

It was quite a while back when we were playing in the surf kayak sailing offshore in rough seas, and I totally forgot about it until this thread.
All of our Hobies were armed with a secret weapon. At the time ( about 10-12 yrs ago) I posted everything on this forum but I’m sure nobody remembers now.
Everyone of our Hobies was equipped with a special weighted keel, making the kayaks totally un-tippable, we could play and kayak sail in any waves and wind we wanted, most of our kayaks also had spinnakers as well. Lol I had forgotton about all of it.
The system makes any Hobie totally suitable for pretty much any rough seas and surf. Of course our preference was kayak sailing, because it’s fun, but I suppose it could be applied to whatever kayaking you like to do.

Everyone can do as they please, makes no difference to me, I’m only sharing because I thought it was pretty fun.

A couple of the first designs didn’t work out so well, ( the ones with the rubber hose, ( for those that remember)).
The final design worked really well, and you didn’t have to worry about beaching or anything. Obviousy we were mostly offshore in deep water, so we weren’t concerned with grounding, but even if the keel hit the bottom, (like oyster beds), we didn’t care, can’t hurt anything on the boat, and the keel weight itself is indestructible. If you pull up on a beach it just pushes out of the way.
We ended up installing the weighted keels on all 3 of our Kayaks.
I don’t recall the exact dimensions anymore, or the required weights for each model, whoever tries it will need to do some trial and error, ( though I strongly doubt anyone will).
Since we are scuba divers we always have lead weights laying around the garage, you can buy weight bags of lead shot at any scuba shop. Lead is I think around $3-$4 bucks per pound these days. Obviously anything under water creates a little drag, but the amount of drag from the torpedo shape is minimal.
On the revo 13’s if I recall we used 2” dia pvc pipe around 20 inches long. We glued a cap on one end, then poured lead shot into the pipe filling it to the correct weight (I think it was around 15 lbs, but don’t really remember for sure). We didn’t glue the cap on the other end, we just shoved over the other end, then sunk a screw in the side to keep the cap from coming off.
To suspend the weight under the boat we just used the grey hobie spectra rudder line (available at any Hobie dealer).
In the front we just tied the line around the tube body with a cinch knot, ran the line up thru the mirage slot, then slipped over the floor cleat on the old revo’s, or any handy place, ( we just made cinch knots in the spectra line and slipped over the cleat.
In the rear we had two lines, with conch knots that slipped over the the cleats at the back of the boat that hold the cargo area bungy.
I don’t recall how deep we ran the keel under the boat, I think it was around 8” under the hull. You probably have to experiment with the depth. The way to test is just sit on the gunwale of the boat in a swimming pool, if the boat tips over you need to either add more weight, or lower the weight.
I do remember using 25 lbs on our Oasis, but that had both a jib and spinnaker.
Our TI kayak, ( with no AMA’s or motors installed), for kayak sailing we had a 50 lb keel weight on a swinging keel, but we were running a seventeen ft tall 33sqft wing sail. The wing sail had about the same power as the 90 sq ft main sail, obviously you have to have the AMA’s on when using the mainsail.
Obviously even with all our stuff, we still flipped a lot in real extreme conditions.
Hope this helps, (probably wasting my time tryin to describe, sorry)
FE

No waste of time here. That is an incredible idea! I am a plumber and have 5lb sections of lead. As I trial I will open up the rear hatch and place the sections in and give it a whirl. I will also move the sealed lead acid battery that weighs 6lbs and move it to the back.

I like your thinking. Raise the bow in following seas and get the keel down. If my Deep Vee 21' Center Console operates best that way so should the Revo 13.

You gotta realize we were out there trying to surf on our kayaks, just for fun, (totally insane thing to do). If the conditions were right (on-shore-or parallel to shore high, (around 15 mph) winds), and nicely timed 3ft breakers rolling in from Mexico. Always a total blast, but very seldom successful, (you go over a lot).
I did find some old pics of some of the crap.

This is me sitting on the gunwale of one of the kayaks, with a keel weight installed, You likely don't need anything this extreme.


This is a pic kind of showing the torpedo concept, (no need to point the ends, just PVC caps work fine), We ended up running a single spectra front line in thru the mirage pocket on everything. The grey Hobie rudder line we ended up using is only 300 lbs test, (not 500).


This is one of our old Revo's, (we had two). You gotta be a little nuts to toss that spinnaker out in 15 mph winds, (lol, just saying).


This was our old Oasis, The snuffer sock didn't work out, and the keel weight idea (with the rubber hose), really sucked, we didn't use that boat much for surfing, (the Revo's were way more fun).


This is a pic of our Tandem Island kayak sailer, (best and fastest boat we ever owned), we ended up selling everything else and only used the Islands for the last 8 yrs. Yea you can surf with this setup, (I don't advise getting too extreme, we didn't do much kayak surfing with this setup), the thing literally screams, (that 33 sqft wing sail is as powerful as the regular 90 sqft mainsail). When we get the itch to go out kayak sailing, this was our favorite setup, (had to have the keel 50 lb weights, with that 17 ft tall wing sail).


This is the swinging keel weight setup we used on our TI's. The thing fit in a mirage pocket, and was adjustable up and down, we could also swing it a foot or so from side to side to help balance the boat. When not using, just pull the mirage plug. We ended up with 50 lbs, (the TI is a really big boat). Yea of course we tried it with the regular Hobie 90sqft furlable TI regular mainsail, (fine in really low winds, but you go swimming quite often in higher winds, (has to do with the weight and height of the main mast). However if I had an AI mainsail, I would have been using the heck out of it.


Obviously this is all crazy nonsense, but sure was fun. I'm too old now, and don't have it in me anymore, to do that extreme stuff.
Maybe the weighted keel idea, can help the offshore guys, (title of thread). No need to do any of the other crap.

When not using the keel weights, we just stored them inside the hull, (helped a little keeping the CG lower on the boat), that may be all someone needs.

FE

Wow! Thanks you very much for that information.