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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:37 pm
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Location: San Francisco
Hi;
I took my Adventure out through breaking waves for the first time today. Getting out was no problem. Blasted through 3 foot waves - took some air as I flew off the back of the last wave. Lots of fun.
On my return to the beach, the boat immediately spun sideways to the breaking waves instead of riding down them. I was surfing in with my turbo fin drive in the hole but bungeed up, rudder up, under paddle power. The total lack of control was unexpected (not at all like a surfboard or boogie board). I am prepared to steer with my paddle, but the lack of directional control is disconcerting. Should I lower the rudder, risking damage in return for a rear stabilizing fin? Remove the drive, thus reducing drag ahead of the center of gravity and perhaps damping the pivot point? Use a centerboard? Or learn to live with it and steer like crazy with my paddle?
(Please, let's not restart the series drogue discussion)
-Thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:23 pm 
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My experience is limited, but here's what works for me:

I would practice using your paddle as a rudder, making power rudder strokes behind your hips. This will help with control and may be more effective than using the Adventure rudder.

Avoid getting caught moving forward on top of a cresting wave -- save your forward strokes for when the wave has just passed, then slow down before the next one arrives. Take your time and be safe.

When a wave is immediately behind you, shift your attention from forward movement to controlling the stern of the yak -- using power rudder strokes, and back strokes if necessary. The mindset is to keep your bow pointed perpendicular to the waves at all times, not to enter into a race with the waves.

I've had good success coming in backwards, and punching foward through breaking waves, then backstroking, then punching, etc. This might be the safest way to come ashore in surf.

You should also practice bracing into a wave (lean into it, not away) if you find yourself parallel to a breaking wave.

My surf experience is limited, and not with an Adventure, but a Tarpon 16, which I think would behave similarly to an Adventure.

Don't rely on the boat's rudder for much control, and I would for sure raise the fins or remove and tether the Mirage drive before reaching the surf. You want to devote your full attention to using your paddle to control the boat, without trying to do other tasks at the same time.

Oh, and exit the yak quickly once ashore. Most of my flips occur at this last stage if I don't get out and grab control of the boat smartly.

Hope this has helped. Hopefully somone with Adventure surf experience will chime in.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:25 pm 
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i never thought i'd post in the kayak section of this forum, but i think i can offer something. i used to be a lifeguard on the beaches here in florida, and had a lot of chances to take our ocean kayaks out in small surf. they didn't have rudders; steering the the paddle takes a little learning, but you can easily do it that way. in fact, i think that's pretty much how everyone does it, since steering with a rudder could get dicey once the wave pushes you far enough inside.

just keep at it. you'll get the hang.


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 Post subject: surf
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:23 pm 
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Location: San Francisco
Hi all
thanks for advice. Actually, I was not thinking of the rudder to steer, just as a fin to help keep the boat straight. But the more i think about it, I think removing the drive will help alot. it adds a lot of drag that probably helps rotate the boat.


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 Post subject: Sideways
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:01 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
Getting sideways?

This is VERY typical of surf. The aft end, of whatever you are riding, gets accelerated by the wave coming from behind and the front end decelerates as it penetrates the water ahead of the wave. This turns you sideways unless you have good speed and rudder / steering control to keep the boat straight. The longer the boat, the harder it is. The taller the wave, the more difficult as well. The drag from the MirageDrive forward would add to the issue.

For best control, you either have to out pace the wave, by timing the entry and using the drive for speed... or learn how to deal with the boat sliding sideways.

Better learn how to slide in any case.

Slide: The concept is to keep the side of the boat towards the beach from digging in and flipping the boat. MirageDrive out, rudder up and paddle in hand. As the boat turns sideways in the wave, lean into the wave. Drag the paddle in the wave face with the blade flat to the waters surface. Lean heavily on the paddle. This all keeps the side of the boat facing the beach high and the side towards the wave low. Just slide all the way into the beach.

If you are pretty fast and able to time the waves you might be able to make it most of the way in without the next wave catching you. This is highly advised in any larger surf entry as well. You must try to avoid the cresting wave (unless trying to surf of course). The foamy white water is much easier to deal with. A cresting wave can pitch the bow of a kayak deep into the water and flip the boat. If caught in a big wave, I much prefer to slide down the wave face (as described above) than stuff it!

To time the entry, you have to get a feel for the wave sets. Try to follow the last of a bigger set in. I would pedal or paddle hard right on the back of a wave. You end up in the trough of the next one (hopefully a smaller one). By the time the next one catches you, you would be past the impact zone and into the softer white water area.

Fun stuff! Practice without extra gear in the boat.

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
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Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
An article by Jim Sammons kind of summarizes all the above posts.

http://kayak4fish.com/press/SurfSkills.shtml

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 Post subject: Thanks
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:08 am 
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Location: San Francisco
Thanks for all the informative replies!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Location: California
Havoc - How is it going coming back in through the surf on the Adventure? You paddling or peddling in?


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 Post subject: surf
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:18 am 
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Location: San Francisco
Joe11 wrote:
Havoc - How is it going coming back in through the surf on the Adventure? You paddling or peddling in?


To tell the truth I have been out a lot, but not so much in surf. I did have a wild ride in San Francisco Bay a few weeks ago. Tremendous wind and waves. Found the Adventure very difficult to handle with a following sea just off to one side. The boat really wants to broach. And the higher center of gravity of a SOT made me feel a bit unstable. I ended up paddling and using my paddle to brace at the same time. Of course that means no rudder control.

I am goign to install the larger rudder, make a better tie down system for the Mirage drive, and perhaps install a quick release seat belt or thigh straps and then try again to paddle through the surf.


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 Post subject: Broach
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:36 am 
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As in earlier posts, you cannot surf straight in, in most cases. Best bet is all weight aft to get the nose up. Even my little Maui turns sideways in waves. Just physics. The hulls are longer or straighter than the wave shape.

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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:56 pm 
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Location: Escondido
I think you'll find the large sailing rudder will make a huge difference in downwind control! Let us know what you think after you try it. 8)


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 Post subject: experienced
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:50 pm
Posts: 494
Location: sacramento california
Hey Ya'll :?
I know Roadie , Havoc , Matt and many others gotta have plenty more experience than I do in riding waves with a Hobie kayak, (see Matts excellent kayak surf video on the hobie site). So thanks for posting all the great information. My question is then, why do these "longer than the wave shape" surf skis seem to work so well in most surf as compared to our Hobie Kayaks ?
Our Hobies look similar to me, in size and shape, to these surf ski things.
Is it their narrower longer hull shape ? (note surfboard nose section in mid right hand of picture)
Image
Is it the lighter weight?
Image
The wide nose, rocker, foil or edge shape or all the above?
Image
These type of Kayak Surf Skis get used in ocean surf paddle races and by lifeguards world wide so they must have some design features that makes them work so well in surf conditions not to mention the skill's of the paddler. (note surfer in background sitting on surfboard waiting for set waves making this most likely a regular surfboard spot.)
Image
I always thought that using the mirage drive to add power along the face of the wave would keep our boats out ahead of the curl while angling on the open face similar to wearing swim fins while using a bodyboard to increase forward drive for instance but apparently that is not the case..! (It seems to work when riding boat wakes)
Just curious at any rate if our Hobie sit on tops can be modified a bit to work better in the surf zone too.
Anyone have any more ideas.. bigger rudder.. use sidekicks... use the sail... strap a boogie board to the back end....etc 8)
Kepnutz


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 Post subject: differences
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:34 pm 
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I would say #1 the wide nose and #2 the rocker shape are designed in to these for surf use.

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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:12 am
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Location: Northern Neck, VA
The SurfSkis are designed specifically for the surf. The Hobies are sort of "JackOfAllTrades", pretty good at most things, excelling in the fun arena but requiring additional skill sets to do some well. Learn the additional skill sets for surf landings and all will be good with the world. Even surf skiiers need to learn the high and low brace to be safe. We in Hobies do too.


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 Post subject: washed up
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:50 pm
Posts: 494
Location: sacramento california
Hey everybody
No doubt that practice makes perfect or at least better. :wink:
I have seen the surf ski folks getting log rolled all the way into the beach as well. We have had some fair rides in San Francisco Bay and Tomales Bay on moderate tidal waves but they were small and not steep or pitching like typical Beach Break stuff. I thought our Hobie worked well enough in that stuff but I cant wait to try it out in the bigger stuff sometime soon :wink:
...............Kepnutz


Last edited by kepnutz on Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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