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 Post subject: Gas Outboard...Honda 2.3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:42 pm 
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Location: Benicia, CA
The honda is a pretty good engine. It is heavier than I wanted, but I needed it to be reliable. This 4 stroke is air cooled, which is nice since you don't have to flush after each use. It is a wet sump engine. What that means is that you have to PAY ATTENTION to how you store it or even have it oriented while sailing. If you orient it wrong way up, oil gets into the carb and clogs the pilot jet. I found this out because I use both the engine's "lift" and the Hobie mount lift in order to get it out of the way while sailing. I turned the motor the wrong way...oops. Wet sump also means that in a seaway with a lot of chop, you can get the same oil clog in the carb. I guess the point is that if you don't need a motor, don't get one; paddles work fine on a Hobie in most conditions.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:31 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I have twin Honda 2.3 engines on my TI. They are extremely reliable engines, however if you run any fuel with ethanol in it, you get in a world of hurt quickly. Even if it sits just a week the carb gets all gummed up. Fortunately one of our local gas stations sells recreational fuel with no ethanol. I also use Yamaha fuel stabilizer which also seems to help.
Your correct about storing wrong reading in the manual they suggest storing the motor vertically or on it's right side.
I haven't had any trouble so far sailing with the motors tilted up for several hours. But I suspect if stored tilted up for more than a short period (like overnight or longer) I would suspect problems to arise. I accidentally left mine tilted a couple days once, then couldn't get it started. But in my case the spark plug was fouled with oil. Once I cleaned the plug it started.
There is a vacuum vent from the engine block to the air inlet on the carb (like a pcv valve works). I can envision if the motor was tilted higher than the built in motor tilt system allows, I can imagine oil filling the carb. Though I have had a few minor issues, I still swear by Hondas, feeling them to be more reliably than any of my previous motors.
Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:02 pm 
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Location: Rockford, IL
Loving my Torqeedo 1003! No gas, no oil, waterproof.

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"Firefly" - 2012 Hobie Getaway with wings and spinnaker


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:01 pm 
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dorienc wrote:
Loving my Torqeedo 1003! No gas, no oil, waterproof.


I had one briefly. Hated it. It was loud and it kept cutting out when I shifted from fwd to rev. Only tried it the one time and had to paddle back to the launch ramp. It may have been defective since I kept getting some error message, but I got rid of it while it was still waranteed rather than try to figure out what was wrong with it. For something that costs TWICE what the honda 2.3 costs, it was a piece of .... based on my experience with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Dorenc:
A fellow Rockford-ite here, I spent most of my life living up in Roscoe. Not much water in that area though, as a teen I had quite a bit of fun with my sunfish, we would sail at mostly Devils lake, Fish lake and the Madison lakes, and spent many summers bumming around the Mississippi river (where my parents kept their big cabin cruiser at Earls harbor in Clinton. There was a nice lake we used to go to right by the harbor where I was allowed to sail, I got into serious trouble too many times out on the main river, so was banned from there by my parents ( in retrospect it was probably wise on their part (not a safe place for a small sailboat like the sunfish and my skill level).
Now we live in So FL and the Keys, and live right near the Ocean. Our favorite pastime is scuba diving and snorkeling. We can't go in any fresh water here because of my intense fear of gators (it's clearly a phobia (me being Canadian I guess, no gators there (lol)). We sold our Sea Ray powerboat simply because we couldn't afford to keep it so we purchased a TI as our family boat, and use it as such for pretty much anything we can think of usage wise.
One thing we discovered early on is the keys are huge and it's not unusual to cover 50-60 miles in a day. However as divers the visibility goes way down when it's windy and rough, so we tend to only go out in winds below 7mph, and calm seas (which is 80% of the time thru the season (mar-nov).
Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of the Torqeedo 1003 and if I had a choice I would have twin 1003's on my TI if I could travel 10-15mph cruise speed for 50-60 miles, unfortunately the battery tech is just not there yet (current tech is about 20 minutes of run time) so until that day comes I'm kind of stuck with what I have my current fuel economy is around 100 mpg (@8-10mph cruise speed), which obviously goes down quickly the faster I go, especially with no natural wind to amplify. I can afford the dollar or so in fuel every week.
The day someone comes out with an electric solution, is the day I will abandon the gas motors for good.
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:58 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
I have twin Honda 2.3 engines on my TI. They are extremely reliable engines, however if you run any fuel with ethanol in it, you get in a world of hurt quickly. Even if it sits just a week the carb gets all gummed up. ... Though I have had a few minor issues, I still swear by Hondas, feeling them to be more reliably than any of my previous motors.
Bob


I've been running the motor after each sail with the fuel valve off in order to dry out the carb. That "should" obviate the tendency to get gummed up. So far, so good.

The engine gets me out of the marina reliably...but getting back is not that way. Last two times out the motor quit after starting and pushing the boat for about 10 minutes...you can hear the engine sound change like it is getting too lean before it stalls. It starts back up if you choke it and then it will run if you leave a little choke on...so I'm guessing it is still oil in the pilot jet. SO, I raised the motor mount by changing to a taller board--I'm hoping I can just use the engine tilt now instead of both the engine tilt and the hobie mount tilt. Gotta admit, this is the most finicky Honda I've ever owned.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:30 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
That might not be your problem, your problem is likely the gas cap, the gas cap vents are crap, the on/off valve on the gas caps only lasts the first couple time out, then don't work anymore. Your motor is cutting out because vacuum in the fuel tank stops fuel flow. I unscrew the gas caps a couple turns. This happened to both my motors, one then the other. I complained to the dealer about it, and he said there is nothing wrong (kinda pe'ed me off). The impression I get is yes they carry and sell these little motors but stick their nose up at them, much preferring to sell you the $10k to $30k motors instead. Don't get me wrong if something serious happened I'm sure they would honor the warranty, but on the little stuff we are on our own (thats just the impression I get from the dealers). In other words It's probably a good idea to learn to take the carb apart and clean it, they won't, they will just charge you $200 bucks for a new one (fuel issues are not covered under warranty). I have to admit though, beyond the minor fuel related issues, the things are built like a tank, and very reliable (way more than my previous 3-4 motors of other brands).
Hope this helps
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:59 am 
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Y'know I think that may be the problem...I did consider that issue and when I unscrewed the gas cap I did hear some suction...the motor gets way too much splash to consider unscrewing it while it is running and pushing the boat, maybe if it acts up again and I hear the engine noise change tune, I'll unscrew the cap and see if the motor smooths itself again. Have you taken the cap apart to see the vent mechanism? Did you find a final fix?

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Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:27 pm 
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Location: Rockford, IL
Wow, a loud Torqeedo? Mine is very quiet. I found if you try to switch to reverse while the prop is spinning forward too fast, you get the error. I turn it off and on, a matter of 10 seconds, and then can reverse it.
And I get a heck of lot more than 20 minute run time. It'll push my Getaway at 6 or 7 knots at full throttle. I to get into and out of launches. I still have about 40% charge after a total of a couple of hours run time this summer; usually only run it for about 10 minutes at a time.
I had a lot of experience with gas outboards in my youth,hence the electric! :)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:47 pm 
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Yah, it sounded like someone was torturing a cat somewhere inside it. My honda is quieter. I couldn't figure out why it would be making so much noise, most electric motors are whisper quiet...not that Torqueedo. The noise, the expense and the inability to jockey the boat quickly without the engine stopping was enough to tell me that this motor wasn't for me.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:50 pm 
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Location: Delnor Wiggins, Fl Peters Twp PA
I appreciate that you are having this discussion; I just bought a Honda 2.3 but have yet to mount it on our TI. I'm familiar with old motorcycles having gas cap vent issues but never linked the idea to this new 2.3. I'm sure that you've just saved me a headache.

Thanks!!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:22 pm 
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Yea the torqeedos use a PWM drive, and most PWM drives have a loud squeal from the amplifiers humming. I only ever run my Honda's at just above idle (just enough to engage the centrifugal clutches), then I lock the throttle. With the underwater exhaust you can hardly hear them running. So My setup might be quieter than the torqeedo. With my custom designed props with no wind waves or sails that propels my TI to 8 mph, and I get up to 3hrs run time per tank of fuel (built in tank is 1 liter). Thats plenty for me. When I pedal and sail (with wing sail), the fuel economy goes way up.
Pushes all my buttons anyway.
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:47 pm 
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I took apart the gas cap. It is a pretty simple arrangement. It works fine right now on the dry and hard...but I can see that the three tiny holes for the vent could easily get plugged with water from splash due to surface tension. When I reassembled I left out one of the washers to reduce the force on the closure. If that doesn't solve the problem, I'll widen the tiny holes a little so surface tension doesn't have as much opportunity to cause a vapor lock. Just roughing up the holes might do it since surface tension needs a smooth surface.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:09 pm 
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That makes perfect sense, I'll have to take mine apart, they did work ok when new, I'm sure it's just junk in the holes. Other than that, and having to take the carb off and clean it out inside once in a while, the motors are very good and seem very reliable, I run mobile one in mine, and change oil about every 15-20 hrs of run time, sometimes after rinsing with fresh water I spray everything down with WD 40. They have been running now for a couple years most weekends. I'm happy with them anyway.
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:55 pm 
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Take a look at the tiny "air filter" as well. Mine was wet but I don't know whether it was water or gas. In any event, I could suck air through the holes when vent was "on" and could not when the vent was "off". So I know it is working now (on the hard and dry). But I suspect it is pretty easy to clog those tiny holes or have crud grow on that tiny air filter.

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Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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