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 Post subject: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:51 pm 
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I am considering fabricating my own righting system similar to the "upright" solo righting system out of dyneema. Can anyone share the length of the shroud adjuster used by the upright system?


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:27 pm
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Location: FL
Just for the heck of it, I use a water bag when I solo and it seems easier to me than fabing up anything else. You just use your existing righting line. I don't even use block and tackle on it, just make a loop above your head and get the bag out of the water as high as you can while squatting then just stand out and it comes over.


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:21 pm 
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My purpose for adding the upright system is for worst case scenario in that my pole and or my bag are lost or are not enough and I'm willing to risk losing the rig. I plan on using this boat off shore for a 300+ mile on and offfshore challenge race. I want to be able to throw the kitchen sink at the boat in case if getting in real trouble. I'd rather lose the rig and be upright then permanently stuck on my side if I get too fatigued or otherwise in a distress situation.


Last edited by Moon Safari on Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:51 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
Keep in mind that if you use a shroud lengthening system on a H18, you need to add some type of keeper to hold the mast base onto the step, otherwise, there is a very high likelyhood that the mast will jump off the step when you loosen the shroud and you’ll dismast.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:56 am 
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Yes I in plan on securing the mast step with dyneema as well. If anyone could share the measurements for the shroud lengthener i would appreciate the dimensions for the mast tether too.


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:05 pm
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Location: New Hampshire
I have this system on a Hobie 16 -- https://www.westcoastsailing.net/defaul ... gITOfD_BwE

The shroud extender is about 15 inches long. The cable to hold the mast is about 15 - 20 inches long, but doesn't hold the mast in place. All it does is prevent the mast from falling off the boat. The mast has never come off during a capsize, not a frequent event.

I'm not sure I'd view it as a fail-safe system.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:23 pm 
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jclarkdawe wrote:

I'm not sure I'd view it as a fail-safe system.

Jim Clark-Dawe


Meaning as it hasn't helped you much or as that its benefit wouldn't be of much worth in a truly dire situation? Part of my thought of making it out of dyneema instead of swaged wire, cost efficiency aside, is that if need be I'd be able to cut the extenders to completely free the mast quickly and with minimal effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Location: New Hampshire
The cable to hold the mast is something I'd think of doing without the shroud extenders. It's nice to know the butt of the mast is not going to end up in the sea. The concern with the shroud extenders is that with the upper hull now shifted over the other side and is no longer at a right angle and the mast pushing against the mast base. I haven't had a problem with this, but do see it as possible. That will leave you dismasted but relatively safe. You should be able to get the hulls in the right position to sit on them and await help.

No, my concern is with the entire system. I've only used it three times, and gotten the boat up each time. Now one of those times I pop the shroud extender, get the boat upright and it immediately blew over the other side. I now had to pop the shroud extender on the other side. When I got the boat upright, it's now loose in both directions. I didn't think of trying to tighten up the jib halyard. That might have helped the situation.

But at the moment, I haven't figured out how to get the shroud extender back in once I get the boat upright. I do intend to work on this and see if there's a way to get the mast somewhat tightened without finding a beach to fix the problem. With crew, I think this could be done, but I got the system because I tend to sail alone.

Without getting the shroud extender reattached, you have a very loose mast. You've got probably two or three feet of right to left movement at the top of the mast. Maybe more, as I've never measured it. This means that on one tack you've got the mast set properly, while the other tack has the mast leaning quite a bit to the side. As long as you're going in a straight line, this isn't a problem other than losing some efficiency and speed.

The problem is when you change course. A tack isn't too bad. A bit of a slam as the sail shifts and travels that two or three feet, but I don't think the stress on the shrouds is too high. I worry about something snapping, but I don't think I'm anywhere near the breaking point on anything.

I haven't tried a gybe, and quite honestly am too scared to want to try. In a gybe, instead of a gentle crossing of the boom over the boat, even with the shrouds in their normal position, you get a slam. There's a lot of stress on various components in a gybe. However, with the extra shift of the mast when the shroud extender is released, I don't know how much stress will be felt in the system. I see the possibility of something breaking.

Will it? I don't know and don't really want to find out.

I like the system, but there are limits to where I'm willing to go without another boat near me. As you said you're looking for something for a 300 mile challenge, both on and off shore, and for the worst case scenario, I think it's important to understand that the system has some serious limitations.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Gybing is not that scary, if done right - try this:
Begin the turn, now sheet in hard on the mainsheet, and centralize the traveler, and release the jib.
Turn dead downwind....and the wind has nothing to blow against on the mainsail (or on the jib)
Move your body to the other side of the mainsheet stack....change hands on the tiller, uncleat the main sheet,
and continue the turn, being prepared to let out the mainsheet so as not to be blown over.
No 'banging' allowed, sail under control!
Set the jib sheet, and set your course.

The entire gybing process should take place within about 3 - 4 seconds from the time you turn dead downwind and set your new course.

Practice makes perfect.

_________________
2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Location: New Hampshire
John -- The above is not describing a concern about a normal gybe. It's a concern about gybing after I've popped a shroud extender after a capsize and thus having a much larger range of motion in the mast than normal. I can control the boom, but it's the upper part of the sail that will now have a lot of movement. The upper parts of the sail will move a few feet laterally when the load is changed from one shroud to the other shroud and is not under control. Considering the force that I can hear and feel during a tack, where the loads on the shrouds are significantly less than a gybe, I'm not sure what the load on the shroud will be in a gybe. It would be interesting adding a stress gauge and seeing what the force actually is.

Further, I should have mentioned I'm discussing wind conditions of 15 knots or more. I haven't capsized by myself in less than 15 knots of wind (and usually a lot more) by myself on any boat in many years. (I've now probably jinxed myself.)

I find a normal gybe on a 16 a very controllable event.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
You raise a very interesting question - what will the strains be with an 'open' shroud extender?
Mmmmm, if you sheet in hard, I wonder if that will take up the slack, and provide you with the control that is needed.

On dry land, could you take some Dyneema and extend the one shroud by 15", then try a static gybe to see what happens?

I will take a very close look at what happens to the shrouds during a gybe at our last two races, Sept 29th and Oct 8th.

_________________
2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Location: FL
Cant you just sit on the trap line and pull the mast over to get the shroud back in? I dont understand how you undo the shroud extender to begin with as it's way above your head. Unless you blow it before you jump off,...assuming you didnt fall off when you capsized.


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:31 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
I haven't had any problems pulling the pin. It's no worse than trying to grab the righting line. Both are over my head.

I haven't tried the trap line to pull the mast over. But I think you want a lot of slack in the system when replacing the pin. The problem with replacing the pin is the slack shroud is on the downwind side. Not the side of the boat I want to be on and no counter-weight on the upwind side. I've gotten better at heaving to and think that the answer might lie in that process. I do want to start experimenting with the system to get a better idea of what works and what doesn't. Working in more moderate conditions should help with skills development.

I'm thinking that maybe I need to do some video. There's not a lot of information out about this system and how it works. I can do some experimenting on dry land and see what exactly happens when I'm not worried about dumping the boat.

Interesting question of adding a break point with a known strength and seeing where it breaks, both with the shrouds in a normal position and with the shrouds extended.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:18 pm 
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the video I have seen of someone using this type of system on hobie 20 gave me good insight on how the system works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqY_zMlETo0

I have no doubt that I would be able in most situations to repin the shroud back to a normal length once in irons, as the guy did in the video above. Maybe i just need to use my trap to loosen up my mast on its side until it pops off to get a solid answer on how long the dyneema should or shouldn't be for hobie 18's rig....


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 Post subject: Re: Solo Righting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:12 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
I wish I'd capsized in such mild conditions. Looks like winds less than 10 knots and no chop. I agree that in conditions like this it would be easy to reattach the shroud extender.

15" should be very close to the right measurement.

However, if you want to be a bit more scientific, lay your cat on the ground with the mast touching the ground. Because the top of the mast will be below the base and on a downhill slope, the hulls will be at about 100 degrees. Place a stick so that it touches the upper hull and is perfectly vertical and is on the mast side of the boat. Now lift the mast until the mast is level and the hulls are at a 90 degree angle. Now measure how much the hull has moved (distance from stick to hull). It should be in the range of about 5 to 10 inches. Double that measurement and that's what your shroud extender should be. You're taking your boat from an approximately 100 degree angle to an approximately 80 degree angle. You now have the upper hull on the correct side for its weight to help you in righting the boat, the whole point of the shroud extender.

Exactness doesn't really matter here. All you need to do is convert a 90+ degree angle to a 90- angle. Once the hull is below 90 degrees, the shroud extender will work. Just don't go for more is better. The more slack in the shroud extender, the more slop in the top of the mast.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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