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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:06 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Rockland Maine
Hi All,

I am pleased to be the new owner of a 1988 ( E788 ) H18.

I started shopping this summer after my 14 year old son completed two weeks of sailing school on 420's and Lasers.
My own experience is limited to Sunfishes at scout camp almost 40 years ago (Yikes!).

I wasn't specifically looking for a cat, but one showed up on Craigslist near us, and I showed it to my son. He immediately liked it.

That was a H14 turbo, nicely kitted out, but already gone.

Nothing interesting or affordable came along until the end of the season. Prices are good, or at least better now.

At last, this showed up. Right price, location, condition.

Now, we have about 6 months of sitting and reading before we can sail it.

Plenty of time to get all the little things squared away. Parts boxes and credit card bills are piling up already...

This forum has been excellent for learning!

I've also got the Berman books, and the Hobie manuals.

It's nice watching you lucky guys in warm places on Youtube.

This came with a Harken mainsheet system, but Seaway jib blocks. Both seem to be operational.

Question of the day:

How/ when shoud I use the jib sheet ratchets?

I can understand using the ratchet on the main, but it seems like tacking / gybing woud be more difficult if the ratchets are engaged on the jib sheet blocks.
Can crew just pull the sheet through the block easily enough when the load is off?

It seems like auto ratchet blocks on the jib sheet would be the way to go, if ratchets are even useful at all.
Not in this years budget, methinks...


Last edited by tedcool on Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 4176
Location: Jersey Shore
Using the ratchet on your blocks (main blocks or jib blocks) really comes down to personal preference. I find that in most conditions, I prefer to have the ratchets turned on because it makes holding the sheet by hand quite a bit easier. Generally, for upwind sailing, the jib sheets just get pulled in and are cleated, so there isn’t a lot of hand holding going on. However, right before and during a tack, you will find that the jib sheet may need to be held by hand, so having the ratchet turned on will make this easier. The only time I find that I prefer the ratchets to be turned off is in light wind when the ratchet provides too much resistance to allow the sheet to be eased easily. This can be particularly true with the jib sheets when sailing down wind in a light breeze.

sm


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:54 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:11 pm
Posts: 151
to add to SRM post, the "cats" don't do well in light air. the jib may need to be tacked or gybed by hand to get it over more quickly. It's a really fun boat.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:25 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:06 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Rockland Maine
Thanks!

Jersey shore sounds good. Your season must be a month or more longer than I have here in Maine.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:36 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:06 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Sydney, Australia
Hey, enjoy your Hobie 18.

You can buy jib blocks with auto ratchets. I use the Ronstan brand. It is part number RF 45130

Harken also make a similar version.

My boats Facebook page also has lots of other neat ideas in the photo albums section.

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John Forbes
Hobie 18 Reimagined
Sail # 490
Boat name: 18@heart
http://www.hobie18.fun
https://www.facebook.com/Hobie18catamaran/


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:04 am 
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Posts: 32
welcome the 18's are great boats and blast to sail. I use factory seaway blocks for the jib just went with some 8mm dyneema line and replaced the clew blocks with harken. line runs through it with ease IMO. Now I did switch to harken blocks on the main sheet and noticed a big difference. I think because it's going through several sheaves where the jib is only the one on the block and I think the dyneema helped more than the blocks on the jib I noticed your user name you on smokstak ?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:31 am 
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Location: Rockland Maine
John - I liked reading through the 'tips' photo gallery on the FB site. Thanks!

I see that the mast rotation will be way more than I imagined.

You show a lot of poorly tacked jibs. Could someone point me to some detail on getting that done correctly so I don't have an ugly crease? ( edit - found your march 24th post ).

812 - Yep - that's me on the Stack. Haven't visited much lately but i do respond to PM's


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:04 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:06 pm
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Location: Sydney, Australia
tedcool wrote:
John - I liked reading through the 'tips' photo gallery on the FB site. Thanks!

I see that the mast rotation will be way more than I imagined.

You show a lot of poorly tacked jibs. Could someone point me to some detail on getting that done correctly so I don't have an ugly crease? ( edit - found your march 24th post ).


Jib tack Version 1: The easiest is to use a 3/16” long D shackle at the jib tack. That will help. See photos of close up of the red jib. It shows the nice long shackle. The key is to get the jib luff tape / jib luff pocket to sit hard against the forestay. The luff tape should take the load all the way down to the tack. The shackle shouldn’t pull the jib tack forward and pull the luff tape forward of the forestay wire.

Jib tack Version 2: still in R&D stage. I’ll post photos soon of the close up. It’s on the boat of the 5 action photos I posted today with my daughter skippering but they aren’t at the right angle to see the jib tack attachment. No creases though.

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John Forbes
Hobie 18 Reimagined
Sail # 490
Boat name: 18@heart
http://www.hobie18.fun
https://www.facebook.com/Hobie18catamaran/


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:10 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
tedcool wrote:
John - I liked reading through the 'tips' photo gallery on the FB site. Thanks!

I see that the mast rotation will be way more than I imagined.


I presume you mean mast rake, not mast rotation.
In Australia we run heaps of mast rake. Same rake in all conditions.
The more rake you have, the more you slide the jib blocks forward to keep the same sheeting angle.
Try it! We run longer forestays (make a longer strop between the hound and the swivel block on the forestay) and then shorten the sidestays (firstly done by removing the twist toggles) then shorten the wire if the sidestays are still too long.

With more rake, we then run lots more mainsheet tension, stand slightly further aft and just drive the boat hard over any chop or waves.

Enjoy.

_________________
John Forbes
Hobie 18 Reimagined
Sail # 490
Boat name: 18@heart
http://www.hobie18.fun
https://www.facebook.com/Hobie18catamaran/


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:25 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:06 pm
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Location: Rockland Maine
I did notice that you run a lot of rake, compared to the suggestions in the Berman books. 30 years of progress, I guess!

We are a heavy crew ( my fault... ) at about 400 lbs. There's no one to race with here, so we are just hoping mostly for fun, some thrills, and perhaps easier sailing - being able to point higher up when needed. That said, I would like to be able to rig and trim properly - I think it's a great learning opportunity for my son and I.

I did mean rotation above. Some of the pictures seem to show the spreaders pointed almost directly fore and aft.

I simply didn't picture that from my reading.

Each re-read of the books and postings here teach me more. It's taking a while to put the whole picture together in my head.

It will probably be 5 months before we are on the water. Lots of time to read.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:53 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 4176
Location: Jersey Shore
Keep in mind that in Australia, they do not run comptip masts, so the upper mast section is solid aluminum and less flexible than the comptips we use here in the US. The comptip also tapers down as it gets closer to the tip, so the upper mast will bend easily without much rotation induced. With a solid aluminum mast, the only way to get it to bend up top is by allowing it to rotate more so the load is more on the "minor" axis. This allows the mast to bend and the top of the sail to flatten out in windy conditions. That is probably why you're seeing a lot of rotation on Austrailian boats.

With a comptip mast, you can more or less leave the rotation as is for all wind conditions, especially at 400 lbs of crew weight, you will rarely be overpowered and more likely "looking" for power. With a comptip mast, you just pull on more downhaul and mainsheet tension and the sail flattens out and twists open. That is probably also the reason why they need a stronger halyard ring in Austraila. They have to pull a lot harder on the downhaul to get the top of the mast to bend.

sm


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 am 
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Location: Buffalo, NY
John Forbes wrote:
In Australia we run heaps of mast rake. Same rake in all conditions.
The more rake you have, the more you slide the jib blocks forward to keep the same sheeting angle.
Try it! We run longer forestays (make a longer strop between the hound and the swivel block on the forestay) and then shorten the sidestays (firstly done by removing the twist toggles) then shorten the wire if the sidestays are still too long.

With more rake, we then run lots more mainsheet tension, stand slightly further aft and just drive the boat hard over any chop or waves.


Out of curiosity, what's the primary driver behind running that much mast rake? I haven't experimented with it much, but I keep my mast rake at a somewhat "medium" setting, and vary it slightly based on wind conditions. I know the H16's run with as much rake as they can get, but I believe that's largely to compensate for the poorer lateral resistance (due to the lack of daggerboards) in their design, as compared to H18's.

My understanding is that more aft rake = higher pointing ability but less power, so you'd want to rake it back more for lighter crews, heavier winds or calmer water, and rake it forward for heavier crews, lighter winds or choppy water. Do you ever reach a point where your mainsheet is two blocked before you've fully sheeted in?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Hi All,
Mast rotation on our boat has two positions and two positions only. Upwind the rotation spinner/bar points at the back of the dagger board case. Reaching or downwind it is maximum out at 90-100 degrees. Two positions. On or off. Ignore everything else and get your head out of the boat.

Mast rake we have one position. Never ever adjust it. In fact we have a new forestay that is a set length. Not adjustable. My boats Facebook page shows the forestay (non) adjuster and where the rake is set. Yes it is heaps further back than the old days. More rake keeps the bow out and allow the boat to drive much more through the seas. No up and down, just through. No we don’t go block to block on the mainsheet. We still have a short strop on the mainsheet system. More mast rake also opens up the slot between the main and the jib. Our pointing ability is exceptional. We also use lots and lots of downhaul once we get two on trapeze. When we are definitely two on the wire we keep pulling more and more luff tension. Basically pull it as hard as you can until something breaks, then reinforce that item and pull some more. You will see we use 8:1 purchase on both downhaul and mainsheet to get maximum pull on both. More luff tension equals more mainsheet tension, then more mainsheet tension means hull flying so pull more luff tension again, and so on. All the videos on my Facebook page show the crew and skipper pulling the luff tension on, and when this happens the boat accelerates. It’s the 5mm red rope that is accessible from the gunwale when on trapeze.

More mainsheet tension also means more forestay tension which also flattens the jib luff and allows boat to point higher. It’s a continuous combination.

We do run full alloy masts in Australia. With a comptip you can run much softer battens in the top three because the sail will flatten easier due to mast bend. Especially #1 batten. It can be very soft, just start filing it on the sides, 50% camber for top 2 battens and 45% camber for batten #3.

My Facebook page is designed to show photos and videos of how to make the boat modern and capture many ideas learned on the Tornado to make the boat much nicer and easier to sail, especially for youth and ladies. We always want more youth and ladies in the class.

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John Forbes
Hobie 18 Reimagined
Sail # 490
Boat name: 18@heart
http://www.hobie18.fun
https://www.facebook.com/Hobie18catamaran/


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:06 pm
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Location: Rockland Maine
"pull it as hard as you can until something breaks, then reinforce that item and pull some more"

My wife isn't going to like that very much!

I was already thinking of dropping my sails off to get the grommet areas reinforced as your pictures show. Looks like cheap insurance, and I think the local sail shops might give me a better deal for winter work.

Do you think a standard Hobie sail ( just a few years old ) is cut in a way to work properly when set up as you do?

Thanks for the advice!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:46 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:06 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Sydney, Australia
I use standard genuine Hobie sails and genuine Hobie battens.
Just reinforce the eyelets and corners for longevity and insurance. You got it!
Have fun looking at all the photos (and their comments) and the videos. Each is there for a purpose.

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John Forbes
Hobie 18 Reimagined
Sail # 490
Boat name: 18@heart
http://www.hobie18.fun
https://www.facebook.com/Hobie18catamaran/


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