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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:13 pm
Posts: 68
Hi, how is the "Gorilla Glue method" holding up ? I have a very large delam to repair, probably a gallon of Git Rot to repair,, just kidding about the gallon, like the idea of the expanding properties of the glue & gluing the pieces back together. This is probably better than Great stuff,,
let me know,,,


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:25 pm
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Location: San Juan Islands, WA
A gallon would barely make it in my situation. :cry: About $400 bucks if I continue to use the Git Rot method. About $80 if I use GG. I would sure appreciate some hands on experience comments from gorilla glue users. My concern would be that it gets to hard and maybe brittle. Anyone know of a less expensive git rot supplier?

Aaron


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:24 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:43 am
Posts: 779
Location: St. Louis, MO
You can try here http://www.jamestowndistributers.com. They have all sorts of boat building/repair supplies. You might be able to find a larger quantity of GitRot.

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Nick

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 Post subject: delam repair on a budget
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:15 pm 
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Location: San Juan Islands, WA
I found a deal that may take some of the pain out of this whole delamination repair cost issue. The Git Rot is an excellent choice but would run a minimum of 250 bucks a gallon. Gorilla Glue is alot less expensive, but I'm concered about the foaming and brittleness of it.

West System is a great choice and can be had alot less expensive than Git Rot.

I called both Boat Life and West Systems tech department and picked their brains on cost, and effectiveness of their products. All said and done, I am convinced that both are an excellent choice.

One major difference is the viscosity. The West System is very thin and is not a penatrating epoxy. It can be thickened using their fillers if you like but not necessary. In my situation, thinner is better.

Git Rot is basically the same stuff except it has solvents added to help penatrate into the wood or foam. This works great in tighter areas to get complete coverage, but costs a small fortune.

West system has a 1 gallon kit for $110.59. :D You can get the 205 (fast) or the 206 (slow) hardener included in the kit. It also comes with the pumps, gloves, mixing sticks and buckets, Glass mat, and manual.

The best part is, West systems people told me that an effective way to make their product into a penetrating resin nearly identical to git rot, is to dilute the blend with 5% acetone. The acetone solvent will work intrough the foam and or wood and then evaporate off leaving the epoxy filler.

5% is 189 mls per gallon or 6.4 fluid ounces per gallon.

I also asked each company if the 2 epoxies were compatible an recieved the same answer from each. Yes. As long as the other epoxy is cured, the new epoxy resin will fully bond to it.

I have already used 80 bucks worth of Git Rot and would need another 280 bucks worth to finish it.

I can use West System and acetone for $110 bucks and have some left over.

I think I'll do that. :wink:

Thanks Hobie Nick for the Link to Jamestown. Best prices found by far.

SummerSled


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:33 am
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Hi guys,

Although I am nothing more than a beginner on the H16, I am not new to composites, resins and major boat repair on vessels ranging from canoes to 40 foot yachts. I have worked extensively with all the products you are referring to with the exception of the particular brand - Gorilla Glue.

First, yes you can thin the epoxy with acetone quite nicely, but acetone dissolves foam! What I cannot say is if it will dissolve the foam core of your Hobie while in the small concentrations needed via thinning of the epoxy.

Git Rot is thinner than West System for sure, but West System is plenty thin enough to do the job you want to complete. If you really want to lower the viscosity of West epoxy, then warm the resin in a hot water bath prior to mixing and apply it while still warm AND to a warm boat. This will lower your working time considerably (maybe by %30 to %50), so you may want to use the slow hardener as well - your choice. This warming method is very effective in helping the epoxy flow out - even though doing the job on a warm day is all you really need to do to allay your worries.

Personally, I prefer West over Gitrot for this type of job because the Gitrot loses too much gap filling ability due to its low viscosity. The only time I use Gitrot is for the actual purpose it was designed - to penetrate and seal rotting wood. It really is not the best choice for bonding delaminated layers, although I am sure it works for this as well.

Gorilla Glue, as I understand it, is simply an expanding foam adhesive - there are many such adhesives on the market. As such, it absolutely will NOT properly penetrate the delaminated area, and will probably create unseen voids in the laminate that could allow the process of delamination to begin again prematurely. I`m sure it will hold up for "a while", but I doubt it will provide anywhere near the long-term solution of a good epoxy.

The fact of the matter is, when considering the cost saving attributes of products like Gorilla Glue, one must ask the obvious question; if it is so cheap and really works so well for this type of repair, then why don`t professional boat builders use it to fix "delamination" and perform other general fiberglass repairs?

I guess it is possible that Gorilla Glue will be the new "wave of the future" in boat building, and guys like me will eventually have to "get with the program" but...I doubt it. In the meantime, I certainly wouldn`t experiment on any meaningful boat with it.

My hard-earned experience in boat-work has shown me (more than once) that shortcuts almost never yield a good job, and often end up costing you more in the long run...in time, aggravation and money.


Hope this helps you out,

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:13 pm
Posts: 68
Capt. Dave, thanks for valuable info, I like the strength of epoxy & the expanding of Gorilla Glue. I have used GG before on something else, the expanding is minimal compared to a 2 part foam or the canned foam.
I have read some forums on hulls being repaired with canned foam. Seems like it would not have time to settle into smaller areas before expanding.


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:25 pm
Posts: 11
Location: San Juan Islands, WA
Thanks Captain Dave-

It's good to hear feedback from someone who has used both products.

I ordered up the West System and slow hardener. I think I will forgo the acetone just because the void I am working in is pretty open. I have no doubt the epoxy will be able to travel all the way back where it needs to.

I also believe that the slow hardener is a better chioce in delam because it allows more time to run back it the tight spots.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks,
SummerSled


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:33 am
Posts: 57
Location: Ontario, Canada
I think you`ll do fine with the slow hardener. The West System epoxy will flow out quite well. As it does flow out, you may find that you have to inject more epoxy as it settles away into the voids.

It is probably worth emphasizing that the most important aspect of this repair is the re-bonding of the fiberglass layer to the foam core. Neither the foam nor the fiberglass by itself is particularily strong, but when bonded together they become very strong - this is the basic principle of cored/laminate fiberglass construction. Regardless of how much epoxy (or how little) you pump in there, if it doesn`t bond those two layers together - completely - then some degree of delamination will remain. The guy who succeeds with a single ounce of epoxy will be far better off than the guy who uses an entire gallon but still doesn`t bond those two layers together. Any remaining area of delamination will be able to flex and move...until it grows and spreads. That is how it works. It is this flexion you are trying to stop.

If you think it through, you will conclude that anyone can easily rip a layer of fiberglass away from foam - no matter what glue you use. The actual glue layer itself may not rip or break, but the foam beneath it certainly will. Therefore, the strength in this system is NOT the actual glue - it is the uniform and COMPLETE bonding of the fiberglass to the foam that counts. This is where the strength of the hull comes from and this is where epoxy excels over other adhesives; it flows/wicks out very well yet retains just enough gap-filling ability to fill small voids. For larger voids, one can mix in fillers for SUBSEQUENT applications of epoxy - your first application should not be with fillers.

Sorry if all this seems verbose, but IMHO understanding what is important in this particular job will help you approach it in the best way and help you make the best decisions while the job is underway. The fellas recommending foam adhesives have good intentions , but are doing so because they don`t really appreciate the prime objective of the job - once again - the COMPLETE re-bonding of the layers. Unless this Gorilla Glue wicks and flows just like epoxy, it simply will not accomplish this objective - even if its void filling capacity is miraculous.


cheers,

Dave :idea:


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 Post subject: gorilla glue
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 8:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:45 am
Posts: 103
Location: Missouri
pappastratos,
I have checked my boat this winter, it has been in storage, and it seems the gorilla glue is doing ok nad it is nice and solid. I hopefully will get to sail this summer and that will be the real test, but I am getting ready to move so I am not sure I will get time. I injected into a couple of small areas of delamination throuth the inside of the hulls, acess through port cover openings. The larger areas I used the west system, and I did use the filler and even with the epoxy thicked to a catsup/ketchup consistenty it still flowed out of the breather holes even where I covered them with masking tape. If you use the west system or any epoxy injection technique MAKE sure you tape and news paper all over your working area on the hull, go further than you need and keep an eye on it as it cures and slice off the plug that comes out of your injection hole while the epoxy is still plyable and pull off the tape and newspaper when you trim off the epoxy plugs, otherwise the epoxy may bond the tape and newspaper to your hulls. Wow what a run on sentence!! Also make sure you put gelcoat over your injection holes, this will keep the epoxy from deteriorating from UV.
Good luck .
John


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