H16 won't point well at all

I'm new to sailing Hobie Cats and just finished getting a '83 project boat going a few months ago. I've sailed it about 4 times, and each time I've been disappointed at how much the boat feels like it's pinching when I'm at 45 degrees (according to my telo-cat). The closest upwind I seem to be able to go without losing speed is a lot closer to 90 degrees than 45. So tacking is really tricky because when I haul in the main at all and move upwind, I lose all speed. I've been wondering if I'm closing down the jib slot too much, stalling the main, etc. Well today I just realized that I've got mismatched lengths for my shrouds and forestay. I've got 2 shrouds that are the old pre-1982 length (19'2") and a newer (17'7") length forestay. I'm guessing now that's why I had to add two adjusters on the forestay to get the shrouds down at the lowest holes on their adjusters. Or is that normal? Could the mismatched lengths be the main cause of the problem? Or are there other tuning or sailing issues that that seem more likely to be the cause?

I'm going to change out the shrouds to the current lengths (18'11") before I take the boat out again, but I'm now done sailing for the year, and I'm going to be wondering for the next 4 or 5 months. Any ideas?

Pat

If you are moving with any speed...

Crew weight should not be forward unless in very light winds. As the breeze picks up trapeze weight is aft and sometimes a foot can even be placed on the hull under the tiller bar. The rudders act as the best lateral resistance. Tacking is best initiated with weight aft as well. The jib gets back winded to pull the bows through the tack.

If you start to stall, Bear away and gain speed and slowly bring it back up.

Tuning guide: http://static.hobiecat.com/digital_asse ... -guide.pdf

Mast Rake: As a guide, mast should be raked aft so the mainsheet blocks touch or nearly so when fully sheeted.

Jib tack: Adjust in the tack plate to open the slot when sheeted. If you go to the lee side while sailing upwind... the shape of the jib leach should nearly match the main. Blocks to high pulls down and pinches the slot up high. Too low and the top is wide open.

Tell Tails:

Leech tell tails on the main should alternate between flowing and hooking around to the back side when sheeted for optimum upwind performance.

Rudders and alignment: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=467


H-16 Support pages: http://www.hobiecat.com/support/hobie-16/

Forum FAQs: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=18

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Keep in mind that the length of the shrouds were changed when they re-cut the shape of the jib many years ago. This was to allow more mast rake. If you lengthen the shrouds you may loose the ability to fully sheet the jib. Hobie veterans please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I noticed at the last regatta that I attended that I was not pointing as well as the others. I realized that I was not cranking down on the jib halyard nearly enough. I've got an older boat (86') with older sails and that will automatically reduce some pointing ability due to the sails being blown out. But, after really cranking down on the jib halyard I noticed an immediate improvement in performance and pointing ability. I've noticed that if there isn't enough jib halyard tension I tend to not point as well and when I fall off to gain speed I'm flying a hull sooner than I need to be. Both of these contribute to slower overall boat speed. If you are able to get the blocks on the jib to touch the blocks on the traveler, then you may not have enough jib halyard tension.

_________________
James
86' Redline Hobie 16
Sail # 76909

Sounds to me like your boat is not tuned properly. Do you have low profile main and jib blocks? If not, then you're probably going to have problems sailing with the new (shorter) shrouds and I would definitely not be running them in the bottom hole of the adjuster. If your mast has too mich rake, then you're not going to be able to sheet in the sails hard enough and they'll have too much twist which will limit how high you can point - exactly what you're describing.

sm

Thanks for the responses Matt, Abbman and SRM. I appreciate you taking the time. I'll give your ideas a try.

I've wondered about the Hobie Cat Tuning Guide. I've read it a few times now. Was the Tuning Guide written before or after the move towards more mast rake? Some of the stuff in it seems to contradict what's written in Rick White's book (HC Racing for the 90's). Like the part about the shroud placement in the adjusters based on crew weight. (Use bottom hole if crew weight is < 125 kg, 2nd to bottom hole if crew weight is 125-134 kg, etc.) Is that still current?

I have low profile blocks for the main but not for the jib. I have some of the Tren Tec jib cars (that look like plastic brass knuckles and slide in the jib traveler) and the blocks that go with them. I'm considering switching over to those but have hesitated since I haven't yet seen another boat with them. Would they be an improvement or a waste of time?

My main block has been probably a foot from the block on the boom. I'm guessing now that's due to the longer shrouds and not enough downhaul. Does that sound right?

Cranking down on the jib halyard seemed to have helped some. I started doing that on someone's recommendation after the first time we sailed the H16 and it did help to a degree. I'm a little confused about that because I would think that would decrease mast rake. Is cranking on the jib halyard mostly important for light winds? Or do you crank down on the jib halyard in heavier wind too?

Thanks again!

Pat
83 Hobie Cat 16
Newbie

Setting the rake is a trial and error process. Ignore the shrouds to set rake. The traveler is centered and the mainsheet pulled on hard. The mainsheet blocks should be "too blocked". If you can trim the mainsheet in before a tack you are not even close to upwind trim. The forestay will be completely slack. All the tension will be in the jib halyard. If you cannot get the boom very close to the rear cross bar, ease the jib halyard until you can. If the forestay goes tight before you get the rake correct move the forestay to the the top hole in your 10 hole forestay plate. If it still goes tight, add another plate.

Once you have the rake set so you can sheet the main in hard, mark the jib halyard. With no tension on the main sheet check the shrouds. Pin them so they are just tight with the jib halyard at the right setting.

Use your main halyard to measure the rake and note the setting.

Go sailing. The main boom should be very close to the aft cross beam. The jib clew should be very close to the front crossbeam. After every tack repeat to yourself "speed first, then point". The boat will not accelerate to point mode in point trim. You must have the boat moving well before you sheet in the last few inches and point. The 16 will not point with a mono, but it will beat 40 footers to the weather mark tacking through 100°.

Spend your off season looking at photos and video of H16 worlds and nationals. Look closely at trim. You will be amazed.

_________________
Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze

Thanks RHoughVYC for describing a process for setting the mast rake and jib halyard. I'll try it out! Where do you start with the jib setting on the forestay adjuster? Do you just go as low as you can? I'm assuming I'm going to keep my bridle vane on the bottom two holes? Would you just aim for the 3rd from the bottom then? And if that's too low, just move it up until the jib clew clears the blocks on the front crossbeam?

I'm wondering about what you mean about "speed first, then point". Are you saying that the increased speed actually allows you to point higher? So you can't actually point that high until your speed is past a certain point? Or are you just saying that you need to go fast to get through a tack, so don't pinch too early.

What about your starting angle? If you're looking to head upwind, would you start at around 45 degrees and then move closer upwind as the apparent wind changes? Or are you starting even further off the wind?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for all the info. We live far from the water, so I can't practice very often. What a great community!

Pat
1983 H16

You have the right idea on pinning the jib luff. I'm going to be rigging my boats this week and I'll try to remember to take some pictures. You will always have the jib blocks as low on the clew as possible to avoid closing off the slot. The leach tell tails that mr miller posted are a great tool. If the top leach tell is stalled or always behind the sail you have too little twist. Ease the sheet and make a mental note to increase rake a bit for the next time you sail in those wind/wave conditions.

Yes the increased speed allows you to sheet the sails flatter (less drag = better sailing angle). When you are in the groove you can point to about 30° apparent. I set my telo-cat arms at 90° so when sailing fast and pointing the the vane tail is always inside the marker arms. I bear off to just flicking to 45° to power up for a tack. The main stays sheeted hard and I don't move from the aft corner of the tramp. A wide smooth high boat speed turn (too much rudder stops the boat) until the jib breaks. Crew goes to forward corner of tramp and holds jib sheet until the telo-cat is past 45° on the new tack. Ease the main sheet a couple of feet so I can get my fat bottom across and under the boom the crew has sheeted the jib about 2-3" from full on trim and I center the rudders. Do not try to turn up until the boat is accelerating hard. over sheeting the jib kills the power you need to accelerate. Over sheeting the main or trying to point before you have speed will put you in irons. Steer only enough to keep the telo-cat at 45° until the jib gets sheeted hard and bring the main back in all the way and start pointing. If you feel the boat is sluggish/dead crack the sheets a few inches and get the speed back before you stall the sails and stop. It takes longer to type/read than to do it on the water. The H16 goes upwing using the rudders as daggers, sort of like a windsurfer skeg. The extreme rake puts higher loads on the rudders and they become easier to stall. Higher boat speed keeps the flow attached at the high loading.

My GPS tracks show about 100° to 105° tacking angle (Course Over Ground) I'm going to try to improve on that this season.

Maybe the short answer is yes. Start upwind at 45° apparent then head up a few degrees after the boat is going as fast and you can trim it on that course.

Cheers
Randy

_________________
Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze

Thanks Randy for the long and short answer. Both are helpful. I'll need to take some time after work to digest it all.

Pat

Randy,

I'd like to see some photos of a well tuned Hobie Cat if you have the time to take and post some of your boat. Or did you already rig them and take them down?

Pat

I should be rigging three boats this week. I'll do my best for you.

R

_________________
Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze

Thanks!!!