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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:59 am 
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I restored a 87 H16 last winter with the help of forum members and have been out the last 3 weekends enjoying the boat. This weekend was my first fairly windy weekend (18mph - 25mph) an I was having a heck of a time getting the boat through the wind when tacking (like NOT AT ALL). I've been setting up the boat with the jib foot in the 4th hole from bottom and the jib tension set to firm up the side stays. I've not had any problems tacking the other weekends (10-15mph), but it was just not happening this weekend. The main difference in my rig set-up this weekend was moving the jib clew to the second hole from the bottom (I've been in the middle other weekends). I only made this change because I'd read other threads that recommended more jib tension and lowering the jib foot and clew in high winds, along with increased downhaul to flatten out the sail. In addition to the bigger gusts (20-25mph) the seas were steep 2-3ft swells which made gybing quite the experience. I miscalculated one swell on a gybe and ended up burying both bows and flipped. That started my first experience in righting a 16, which ended after 30 minutes of struggling with a good Samaritan boater pulling up to throw me a line to help pull the hull over. I have a new Hawaiian righting line, but was having a hell of a time getting up over the top of the hull to grab it. I could only get to it from the underside which didn't seem to provide enough leverage (I'm 210lbs). My questions are this-

When sailing solo in 15-20 mph winds how are you setting up your boat to perform?

Can anyone help with trick for a vertically challenged (5'7") skipper get hold of the righting line to bring it over the hulls for leverage in raising the sails out of the water after a capsize?

I appreciate any thoughts or tips on helping to help get me more proficient at sailing my boat solo in heavier winds.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:09 am 
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I forgot to mention I also set the side stays in the second hole off the deck for my mast rake. thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
CapeCat wrote:
I restored a 87 H16 last winter with the help of forum members and have been out the last 3 weekends enjoying the boat. This weekend was my first fairly windy weekend (18mph - 25mph) an I was having a heck of a time getting the boat through the wind when tacking (like NOT AT ALL). I've been setting up the boat with the jib foot in the 4th hole from bottom and the jib tension set to firm up the side stays. I've not had any problems tacking the other weekends (10-15mph), but it was just not happening this weekend. The main difference in my rig set-up this weekend was moving the jib clew to the second hole from the bottom (I've been in the middle other weekends). I only made this change because I'd read other threads that recommended more jib tension and lowering the jib foot and clew in high winds, along with increased downhaul to flatten out the sail. In addition to the bigger gusts (20-25mph) the seas were steep 2-3ft swells which made gybing quite the experience. I miscalculated one swell on a gybe and ended up burying both bows and flipped. That started my first experience in righting a 16, which ended after 30 minutes of struggling with a good Samaritan boater pulling up to throw me a line to help pull the hull over. I have a new Hawaiian righting line, but was having a hell of a time getting up over the top of the hull to grab it. I could only get to it from the underside which didn't seem to provide enough leverage (I'm 210lbs). My questions are this-

When sailing solo in 15-20 mph winds how are you setting up your boat to perform?

Can anyone help with trick for a vertically challenged (5'7") skipper get hold of the righting line to bring it over the hulls for leverage in raising the sails out of the water after a capsize?

I appreciate any thoughts or tips on helping to help get me more proficient at sailing my boat solo in heavier winds.

Thanks

Add you a short rope to each side tied to the righting lines, then toss the lines over the hulls when you have flipped, this way you can grab your righting line and pull it down to you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:20 pm 
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It takes about 285 lbs to right the boat with line inside or outside... no real difference. You need a water bag or shroud extender to do it alone.

Tacking (especially single handed) in higher winds is a real challenge. You have to sheet hard to get the boat to round up. You have to let the jib backwind and sheet the main OUT A LOT while the jib pushes the bows around. You likely will start backing up, so you would then reverse the rudders. Let the bows come well past the next tack, release the jib and re-sheet on the new side. Bring the main in slowly.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:40 pm 
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I find it helps that if when you get to the eye of the wind (not before), you push the boom in the direction it needs to go to complete the tack. You lose a bit of speed because you are essentially back-winding, however, you gain time because you
are rotating the hulls below you, and start the new tack sooner. If you stall completely you need to reverse the rudders like Matt said, (like a three point turn in an automobile) however, with some practice, you quickly get around.

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1981 H16 56662 Cat Fever "Double Dose"


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:05 am 
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I appreciate the tips. I did discover the need to sheet in as I smoothly move the helm a lee and let the jib backwind and pull the bow across. It seemed to be much more difficult when I had the jib clew set on the second hole up from the bottom. When I moved the clew back to the center hole it seemed to help get me that little extra speed to counteract the on coming swell and get me across enough to backwind the jib. When I was in the same velocity of wind, but tucked behind a barrier island with very little swell to contend with, the boat came about quickly and was easy to control. I have three questions related to the jib settings and tacking;

When would you use the lower, or upper holes for the jib clew?

How do set the corresponding hole for the jib at the forestay (i.e. when you drop the clew do you also drop the forestay connection) ?

When heading upwind in 15-25 wind speeds solo, does it help to stay forward on the rail (up closer to the side stay) to balance the boat and get it to point higher? I was moving around on the rail and having trouble finding a sweet spot forward of the corner that didn't cause me to bury the leeward hull.

Thanks for thoughts!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:17 am 
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mmiller wrote:
It takes about 285 lbs to right the boat with line inside or outside... no real difference. You need a water bag or shroud extender to do it alone.


Do I understand it correctly that it doesn't matter if I'm pulling the righting line from inside the hull or over the hull, the leverage is the same? I could grab the righting line inside the hull without the need to climb up the dolphin striker to reach around the front pylon an grab the line. I was barefoot and it was killing my feet to stand on those skinny rods. To simply grab the line from inside and fill a bucket to help right the boat will be much easier. I'll head over to Sturgis boat works and pick up a righting bucket this week.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:22 am 
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Quote:
Do I understand it correctly that it doesn't matter if I'm pulling the righting line from inside the hull or over the hull, the leverage is the same?


Virtually the same. More load on your arms when over the hull... more compression on your legs when straight from the hull. The issue has and will be debated, but the rotational forces are very similar and not typically worth the effort and time to throw the line over the top.

Jib clew attachment hole choice is based on sail shape. Lower and the leech is pulled down tighter. Higher and the leach is opened up. Rule of thumb is to make the shape fit the main sail shape. Too tight and it pinches off the slot between main and jib. On the beach move to the lee side and pull down on the clew... then raise it up to see the slot open and close.

Hobie 16s like your weight more aft going to weather in higher winds. bows up and riding on fully immersed rudders.

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Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:24 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
CapeCat wrote:
Do I understand it correctly that it doesn't matter if I'm pulling the righting line from inside the hull or over the hull, the leverage is the same?


With respect to righting the boat, you are correct. The boat does not "care" where the line is coming from. It only cares the position of your center of gravity relative to the center of gravity of the boat.

The routing of the line can effect how easy it is for you to physically get your body into position. In other words, holding the line may be more difficult with the line coming inside the hull as opposed to outside the hull, but if you can get your body straight out and suspended just above the water, then you have achieved the max righting moment. One of the best things you can do is take the righting line and wrap it over your harness hook to help take the strain off your hands.

sm


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:26 am 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
Tacking a H16 in those conditions solo is tough. You have to be smooth AND fast to pull it off without having to do the "y" turn.

What I have started doing this this to tack...

With speed, first center the traveler and really crank down on the main sheet and let it start to turn...

Ease the rudders into the turn playing a fine line of not slamming them and killing all speed but not wasting to much not turning..

Nearly head to wind I quickly let out about 2-3 foot of main sheet and as quickly as possible break off enough jib sheet to keep from pulling a wheelie but still holding the clew of the jib near the mast. to make sure the bows come around.. When solo and the winds honestly above 18 mph with heavy wave action you need to be sure to crack the main off and be ready to not let the jib fully backwind while still tightly cleated in tight on the "old" sheet.. It will be harder to uncleat, and your weight on the back of the boat will start a wheelie causing you to have to most likely drop the tiller to race to the front of the tramp to save... Killing the tack.

Once certain you aren't going to wheelie a quick tiller extension switch all while increasing the pressure to keep it turning smoothly, then attention back to the jib.. Trimming it as needed to get the boat moving forward on the new tack.. Once moving attention goes back to the main. Unless you find the boat isn't wanting to pick up speed but instead wanting to round back up... If this is happening quickly let out more main until the jib has you moving and you can bring it in smoothly. Sometimes if I know wave action is going to really slow the tack.. and I am traveling out to depower anyway once tacked... I will try to let the main traveler down at the same time I let the main sheet out while nearly or just past head to wind...


As far as weight balance... The 'perfect' situation is "roll tacking" yet this is tough with so much to do and think about during a heavy air solo tack. A heeling boat wants to go to windward.. So it pays when starting the tack to let the boat come up just a wee bit just as you begin the turn.. With crew I hang out on the old windward/new leeward side as possible to keep the boat turning keeping wetted area down, weight near the rudders as much as possible for as much of the turn as possible. It also makes it easy to keep the tiller pressure smooth and steady when you don't move around much until the tack is essentially complete.. Solo honestly I prioritize sail management and think very little about where I am putting my weight other than making sure the shiny side stays down. I think though given the order in which I do things tends to keep the weight in the right place.


It really took some practice to get it right, and I still miss sometimes.. You really need to practice quite a bit in lighter air(5-10mph) and think about all the things which change for heavier conditions. You really need to be able to not only just complete tacks in light conditions, but hammer them out really quickly and efficiently to be able to have any chance in heavy air.

slow and smooth is faster than sloppy and fast.

Learn the "Y" turn because you are going to blow a tack.. As they say... It happens.. Lets say you get just to head to wind and the boat stalls... If you have crew all they have to do is pull the jib clew into the wind to 'backwind" it, and you will be surprised how quick it comes around unless you are totally stopped.. When solo you just need to be quick to realize you aren't going to make it and reverse the rudders and push the main out quickly to 'backwind' it.. When it is blowing the boat will start moving backwards quickly.. Just make sure you let it come around far enough before trying to take off again...


Sorry I don't have any good solo tacks uploaded yet... But here is what not to do.. :lol:

http://youtu.be/vm4iAiItVaM

Note I headed into the tack at low speed, don't use the leech of the main to make the boat turn... Then there is enough wind to get the boat moving backward quickly even with the sails luffing.. About the only thing I did really right was minding the tiller.. But still.. You see the result. Boat speed is your friend..



Righting the boat...


I am currently 200 lbs and quite regularly right solo without assistance (I am also 6'5" which helps) It is matter of getting the boat turned just right into the wind so the water can wash off the uncleated sails, and the wind can help lift them up.. This of course in conditions with enough breeze to help me.. Sometimes if I get knocked down on a puffy day I just have to wait for the next puff to come along before it will come up..

I have a couple loops of line I keep on my righting line. They are "tied" on to my righting line with Prusik loop... This allows me a strong adjustable hand hold and an easy way to hook to my trapeze harness to hang out and get everything just right should the boat not want to pop up right away.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:36 am 
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I really appreciate all the thought and depth you've put into your suggestions. I agree it's just time in the saddle to get a little more proficient, but your suggested tips allow me to cheat on my learning curve a bit :) Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:49 pm 
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Some good advice given already in this thread. The only thing I will add is to practice sailing backwards in lighter air, until it gets to the point that you don't have to think about what to push on, and how far to move the rudders. Things happen faster, the faster the wind blows, so when you do blow a tack, backing up under control may save a dunk, as opposed to going the wrong way.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:21 pm 
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CapeCat wrote:
This weekend was my first fairly windy weekend (18mph - 25mph) an I was having a heck of a time getting the boat through the wind when tacking (like NOT AT ALL).
Yeah. . . that's when you know it's time to get off the water. Tacking instructions are given above, but know that above 25 you probably won't be able to tack at all since the pressure of wind and waves will push the boat and won't let it pass through the eye of the wind.

CapeCat wrote:
In addition to the bigger gusts (20-25mph) the seas were steep 2-3ft swells which made gybing quite the experience. I miscalculated one swell on a gybe and ended up burying both bows and flipped.
Yep. . . that's another sign it's a good time to get off the water. However, until you do, gybing is a challenge but not un-do-able. The counter-intuitive trick is to have speed when you do a high wind gybe. I suspect the reason having speed works is that when the wind hits the sail on the opposite tack the air pressure on the mainsail combined with lower resistance of hull speed to knock the boat over is decreased, while slow gybes puts more pressure on the sail than the hulls can bleed, which blows the boat over. (Or something like that. I was a Liberal Arts major) I've not done high wind gybes solo, but my method with crew is to ease the jib some more, then announce the gybe, then pull the tiller, then begin moving to the middle of the boat and unclear the main sheet as I pass and let it go. After the mainsail gybes, gently sheet the jib and main, and be sure to get your weight as far as you can on the windward hull before doing this.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Skipshot wrote:
Yep. . . that's another sign it's a good time to get off the water. However, until you do, gybing is a challenge but not un-do-able. The counter-intuitive trick is to have speed when you do a high wind gybe. I suspect the reason having speed works is that when the wind hits the sail on the opposite tack the air pressure on the mainsail combined with lower resistance of hull speed to knock the boat over is decreased, while slow gybes puts more pressure on the sail than the hulls can bleed, which blows the boat over. (Or something like that. I was a Liberal Arts major) I've not done high wind gybes solo, but my method with crew is to ease the jib some more, then announce the gybe, then pull the tiller, then begin moving to the middle of the boat and unclear the main sheet as I pass and let it go. After the mainsail gybes, gently sheet the jib and main, and be sure to get your weight as far as you can on the windward hull before doing this.



Yes.. you want to be going as fast as you can... If possible I 'heat it up' a bit right before a heavy air gybe.. Then when I start the gybe I sheet in quickly and nearly center the traveler.. This helps as the boat will be pointed deeper in the wind when the boom snaps across... and will be stalled after it comes across.. not to mention the apparent wind will be remain further ahead if the boom os coming across sooner.. Then drop the traveler back and start building speed ASAP.. The faster you are going the more options you have in which to bail out of trouble.

If you aren't going to center the traveler you NEED to have a sense of when to grab the boom and throw it over... And then be mindful that as soon as the sail fills it is going to want to round the boat up.. This will power the boat up... So be thinking about pulling the tiller back down before it comes across and all should be good..

Done right with enough apparent wind there is nothing to it...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:50 am 
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Hang on and jib thru the wind control the main sail and off you go in a new direction Not good for racing but ok for drifting around
My idea is that you are letting off the tiller and or not backwinding the jib

Former Hobie Admiral Gary


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