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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:13 am 
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This was much more of a pain that what it should have been, but in the end, I'm happy with the conversion. I was debating just buying the new Harken gear, but I enjoy modifying and fabricating things, so I just went ahead and used the original Seaways to see how well they work, and use the money on other parts of the boat. I probably did some things the hard way, so please only use this as a rough guide, and if you see an easier way of doing things, please post. Cost was around $25, this included the used single Seaway block found on Ebay, stainless hardware, and using the OEM cam cleat. Add $25+ for the Harken cam cleat upgrade, plus you will need to fabricate a bracket to hold the Harken cam cleat. The upside though is that the bracket can be made to bolt onto the outside of the triple block, so that you can adjust the angle without needing to pull apart the blocks.

First thing is to purchase a single Seaway block. I found mine on Ebay.

Drill off the heads of all of the rods holding the blocks together. Wrap your blocks in tape to keep them held together, there are lots of needle bearings and (6) small balls which can fall out. The rods can be stuck pretty good, so use a screwdriver, punch, or something of appropriate diameter to drive them out. It may be easier to pry off the side plates first.

Image shows the heads drilled completely off
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Pry off the end plates.
Image

Image

Remove the rods.
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End plates and rods removed.
Image

Here is what the inside of the pulley looks like.
Image

Notice there are three ball bearings around the perimeter of the sheave, they just drop into a shallow hole, and are loose. I believe they are only there as spacers so the sheave does not rub on the housing. These easily fall out and you will need a good flashlight and about 20 minutes of crawling around on your hands and knees if you want them back, don't ask me how I know. In the picture, I used duct tape to hold the pulleys together through this process.... don't do that. Use something that is easily removable, such as painters tape.
Image

Keep the clevis pin in the center pulley, the outside pulley clevis pins can be removed.

Start to assemble the stack. I used end plates on the outside of the stack only. I started with a washer on the bolt, then slid on one of the outer pulleys, then the center ratchet pulley, then the opposite side outer pulley. You will need spacer washers in between each pulley. The quantity required will depend on if you are keeping side plates on the inner sides of the pulleys or not. You just want the pulleys spaced as close as possible, and parallel with each other, so adjust the washers accordingly.
For the center pulley with the ratchet & cleat, I chose to leave off the side plates. My idea was that the small screws on the adjuster plate now has nothing to screw into with the side plates missing, but they still drop into the holes which are left in the pulley housing. I though since the two outer pulleys are pulled tight to the inner pulley, that this would keep the adjuster screws secured and keep them from coming out. While this is true, it ended up being a bad idea as well. While assembling the center pulley, and trying to keep the pulley together, and keep the bottom adjuster bolt from falling out, it took many tries to finally get it without letting the pulley separate and send the little ball bearings flying out. Some temporary, cleverly placed masking tape may have avoided the whole issue, so if you choose to do it this way, I'd go that route. On a side note, if the angle of the cleat needs adjusted, you probably won't want to do it over the water.
Image
Image

Secure the bolts with nylock nuts, and grind the ends of the bolts down, removing any sharp edges.

Now you will need to get clever and figure out a way to add some sort of becket or tie off point for the line, which doesn't stick up too far, but also doesn't interfere with the ratchet operation. The simple idea that I had required using longer bolts for the cam cleat, then making two "L" brackets which will sit over the cam cleat bolts. The original roller becket & clevis pin from the seaway pulley is used on top of the "L" brackets. The "L" brackets may need to be bent inward slightly so that the clevis pin sticks out far enough to get the ringding attached. A tip for making a sharp bend in metal if you don't have access to a brake, is to clamp it in a vice, and tap repeatedly as close to the bend as possible. Eventually it will fold over the vice jaw and you can tap it straight down, creating a nice 90 degree bend.
Image

Now assemble the remaining three single blocks for the uppers and that's it!


Last edited by SlowSL on Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:22 am 
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Great write up!
I like the new side-plates. I was thinking along the same lines of making new side-plates. I am a machinist and have a vmc but waterjets are so much better for thin ss on something like this.

Would you have any interest in selling the side plates?

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82 Yellow hull 16 '81 nationals
[img]20180909_191954.jpg[/img]


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:56 am 
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A1cnc wrote:
Great write up!
I like the new side-plates. I was thinking along the same lines of making new side-plates. I am a machinist and have a vmc but waterjets are so much better for thin ss on something like this.

Would you have any interest in selling the side plates?


Thanks! Nice, I would love to have a VMC, we just have a manual mill. There are so many projects where a CNC mill/lathe would be handy. We have a couple Flow waterjets. They are beasts, thickest material we've cut was 9.25" thick hardened tool steel, and 12" thick 6061 aluminum, and it could easily cut thicker. It burns through thin material pretty quickly, still though, a laser would eat a waterjet alive on the really thin materials. I might be willing to sell some. The problem is that the Harken jaws sit up on a "platform", the OEM cleat does not. I designed the bracket with that in mind, so if the stock cleat were to be used, the rope would be at an awkward angle going through the cleat, and may not work. I could either make a 2nd design to match the OEM profile, or just use a spacer under the OEM cleat to make up the height difference. I wonder how many people would use this type of bracket?

On a side note, I modified my castings to make the rudders adjustable, also going to try them out in the next couple days. If they work well, I will make a tutorial for doing that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Why did you go with the Harken cleat? I haven't sailed my 16 too many times but It seems fine for me. I would be interested in the side plates if you do decide to sell some. Maybe do a poll on here and maybe beachcats to see how many would be interested.

I was looking for a way to make my rudders adjustable too. I will be interested to see how yours work out.

I have been too busy with work to do any mods to my 16 yet. Whenever I have had free time I have gone sailing.

Yep, Vmc, 2 cnc lathes fun stuff. It's what I make my living with. I used to have 3 vmc's and the 2 cnc lathes all in a 20x 24 garage. Was a bit cramped but I made it work. I sold 2 of them because they were getting problematic and before they completely died I got some $$ for them.

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82 Yellow hull 16 '81 nationals
[img]20180909_191954.jpg[/img]


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:35 am 
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A1cnc wrote:
Why did you go with the Harken cleat? I haven't sailed my 16 too many times but It seems fine for me. I would be interested in the side plates if you do decide to sell some. Maybe do a poll on here and maybe beachcats to see how many would be interested.

I was looking for a way to make my rudders adjustable too. I will be interested to see how yours work out.

I have been too busy with work to do any mods to my 16 yet. Whenever I have had free time I have gone sailing.

Yep, Vmc, 2 cnc lathes fun stuff. It's what I make my living with. I used to have 3 vmc's and the 2 cnc lathes all in a 20x 24 garage. Was a bit cramped but I made it work. I sold 2 of them because they were getting problematic and before they completely died I got some $$ for them.



I had read that the Harken doesn't chew up the line as quickly as the Seaway, and also can be cleated easily just by downward force without sheeting in at the same time. I just purchased new 8mm salsa line, so figured why not. I will say just sitting here playing with the harken, it certainly is very smooth and easy. I will see what I can do with the brackets when I have some free time. I'm thinking leave the brackets the way they are, and just cut a spacer plate for use with the OEM cleat, so they can be used with either cleat.

I re-assembled my rudders & castings last night and tested. Using a 5/16" bolt as the cam locking pin, it takes a good amount of grunt to tighten hard enough where the pin stays put, and not slide back, which also requires thicker washers (1/8") so they do not deform from the load, but seems to be good. When locked down, there is about 1/8" of slop between the rudder and the set screw. I watched a video on how the adjustable rudders, and the guy used a screwdriver to put some positive pressure on the plate while tightening. I can probably eliminate the slop if I did it that way. For me though, this should be fine. Hell, there was a good 1/2" of movement or more before this modification. My rudders also had toe out of about 3/16". I was going to cut out 1/2" lengths of the tiller bar on each end, slide in an intermediate tube, align the rudders properly, then secure the tubes back together with tech screws to get the toe in that is needed, but since there is a slight bend in the arms, I just laid them down on the ground and stood on them to straighten them out slightly. I will see tonight if the toe angle changed.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:12 am 
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SlowSL wrote:
I had read that the Harken doesn't chew up the line as quickly as the Seaway, and also can be cleated easily just by downward force without sheeting in at the same time.


The Harken cleat is 100x’s better than the Seaway for the reasons you mentioned. In addition, you will be able to push the boat much harder, knowing that you can quickly release the sheet with a simple flick of the wrist. For the money, you can’t beat it and you won’t be disappointed.

sm


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:05 am 
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srm wrote:
SlowSL wrote:
I had read that the Harken doesn't chew up the line as quickly as the Seaway, and also can be cleated easily just by downward force without sheeting in at the same time.


The Harken cleat is 100x’s better than the Seaway for the reasons you mentioned. In addition, you will be able to push the boat much harder, knowing that you can quickly release the sheet with a simple flick of the wrist. For the money, you can’t beat it and you won’t be disappointed.

sm


Oh yeah, I've had trouble uncleating the Seaway a few times in a panic. Nearly ended up taking a swim.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:24 am 
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Minor setback over the weekend, but I have a solution. So hooked it up and went to test out the new 6:1. The cleat angle was too low, needed adjusted. When trying to rotate to a greater angle, the cleat bracket hits the ratchet bracket, which is up pretty far as it is. I could probably have moved the ratchet bracket up even farther, and and make the cleat bracket work, but the idea in the first place was to avoid having to take the blocks apart. Also, moving the ratchet to the backside doesn't work as I originally thought, the line passes through the backside of the pulley, duh. I took the ratchet out for the time being and went out sailing anyway. With gloves on, and using 8mm line, I had no fatigue after about two hours of 18mph(28mph gusts), it was pretty easy to keep tension without cleating. The sheet is able to be dumped a bit quicker in a pinch than on the 5:1 with 1/2" line.
My idea is simple and should work perfect, I'm going to incorporate the thumb wheel and latch wheel holes right into the new cleat bracket. This way, it won't matter how the bracket is adjusted, the ratchet bits will rotate with it. I will update the guide once I get the bracket to work well.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Thanks for posting how it worked.

How did your adjustable rudder mod work in that wind?

I am thinking of making some drop in 1/2 round spacers and adding a slot to the top of my rudder castings so they work like the Hobie adjustable castings.

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82 Yellow hull 16 '81 nationals
[img]20180909_191954.jpg[/img]


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:15 am 
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A1cnc wrote:
Thanks for posting how it worked.

How did your adjustable rudder mod work in that wind?

I am thinking of making some drop in 1/2 round spacers and adding a slot to the top of my rudder castings so they work like the Hobie adjustable castings.


They worked really well actually. I miscalculated how much material actually needed to come out of the castings, took too much out, so they ended up raked too far for the initial test. Better than not enough and having to take them off and grind some more I guess. Not a problem, just need longer set screws to dial them back a bit. I only had a cross section image of the new castings to judge by, so it was a shot in the dark how much material actually needed to come out. Currently, If I let go of the tiller, the boat has zero weather helm, which I will be correcting before my next outing so I don't have a runaway boat. Much easier on the arm not having to fight heavy weather helm. I only bought a couple different length set screws, longest one I've got threaded in only a couple threads and it's sticking out about 1/4", so another stop at the hardware store it is. The lock is pretty solid and easy, with just a little tiny bit of slop between the rudder and the set screw, plenty good though.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:43 am 
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I am glad that worked for you. My last outing on the 16 in crazy wind I discovered just how heavy of weather helm I have. Pretty much white knuckled it the whole time out. I actually haven't measured my toe-in either now that I think of it.

My 14 turbo has adjustable rake and epo's on it. Hmm might have to make a switch as I am pretty sure I will be selling the turbo now that I have a couple outings on the 16.

I am going to compare the 2 castings to see if it makes sense to modify the 16 rudder housings. I already looked quick and it seems do-able to just make a 1/2 round that would drop in and work.

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82 Yellow hull 16 '81 nationals
[img]20180909_191954.jpg[/img]


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:05 pm 
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By 1/2 round, do you guys mean the plate that is currently used in the adjustable rudder system?

Here are some photos of the areas needing ground down, and how mine are configured.
Image

Had to notch out up about half way to the rivets
Image

Image

You will not need to grind out nearly as much as shown in the pic here...
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:11 pm 
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By half round I mean an insert that will basically make the shelf to support a locking plate just like the newer castings. Then I will have to mill a slot through and can adjust it just like the factory ones.

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84 14T #67 Blue Hawaii faded but still working!
82 Yellow hull 16 '81 nationals
[img]20180909_191954.jpg[/img]


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:04 pm 
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A1cnc wrote:
By half round I mean an insert that will basically make the shelf to support a locking plate just like the newer castings. Then I will have to mill a slot through and can adjust it just like the factory ones.


Ah, I see now. I may switch mine over that way in the near future to see if it works any better than the way I have mine now.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Okay, got a revised set of brackets made & bolted onto the block. The Harken 150 or the OEM cleat can be used (w/ a spacer), as well as the original ratchet mechanism. The becket roller and pin from the single seaway is installed on the top of the new bracket and used as the new tie off. This design goes on the outside so making adjustments is easy., no need to tear everything apart. Will post a pic when I have a few minutes. Should be testing it out this weekend.


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