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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:39 am 
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:28 pm
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Location: Bristol, IN
So I'm constantly battling the boat wanting to pitchpole when I have someone helping crew and the wind is blowing decent, around 15-20mph with 25+ gusts. Doesn't matter the point of sail, travelers out, tight jib, loose jib, mast raked back to the 2nd hole from the bottom & block to block, doesn't seem to make any difference. The guy I usually take out is about 205lbs, which is a bit on the heavy side, but even so, shouldn't be a problem sitting back that far, I'm back as far as possible and him right next to me. On the other hand, I've had a friend that may be about 130lbs. and it still is sketchy, frequently dipping the bow. I've played with the jib tension & position to every possible scenario and nothing changes the effect.

What I did notice recently, even out solo where I'm sitting or trapping almost up to the shroud to keep the boat balanced, is that the last little bit that I sheet in to keep the sail tight, the boat does pitch forward a lot. The second I ease a bit of sheet, the bow comes right back up. It seems to be the main sail pitching the boat forward. While thinking, the downhaul comes to mind. I've always known that the sail has a huge belly/draft, even sheeted in hard, but never really paid much attention to it. The boat has the old style downhaul, and I recently read that you should run it through the center of the cleat, back through the eye, then back to make a 2:1. I tried that recently and the line was not long enough. I noticed that I can only pull the downhaul on about 1/2" the way it is, and there are still wrinkles in the sail. Could the huge draft, (being forward of the center of effort) cause the boat to pitch forward hard when it's pretty windy? It makes sense in my head, but I'm still fairly new to the boat. I've got a 6:1 downhaul on the way, any idea if flattening the sail will help with this?
Thanks,


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:42 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Rake back, flatten the sail, and moving to the back of the tramp is about all you can do.

The next step is to get a Hobie 18....there's a reason Hobie increased the height and volume of the bows substantially on every boat designed after the 16. If you don't like being on the edge of pitchpole, then the 16 is probably not for you....

sm


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Location: Bristol, IN
srm wrote:
Rake back, flatten the sail, and moving to the back of the tramp is about all you can do.

The next step is to get a Hobie 18....there's a reason Hobie increased the height and volume of the bows substantially on every boat designed after the 16. If you don't like being on the edge of pitchpole, then the 16 is probably not for you....

sm


I think you missed what I'm asking. I'm asking if a large draft in the sail, caused by not having the downhaul on will cause excessive downward force on the bow. As I mentioned, I've done everything to my knowledge to help... raking the mast (all the way back), moving to the back (as far back as two people can go without going swimming), pointing upwind as much as possible. I'm very well aware that the 16 is good for pitchpoles, I don't mind being on the edge of a pitchpole, but What I'm saying is the boat definitely has more of a tendency to constantly pitchpole than it should, for sure. The bow is constantly going underwater, and I mean constantly if there is any amount of wind. The boat either is going slow or digging the bow when the wind gusts, there is no inbetween. I've only sailed on two other 16's that I can judge against, the difference is night and day on my boat. The only major difference being the downhaul between the boats, that I know of.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Quote:
I'm asking if a large draft in the sail, caused by not having the downhaul on will cause excessive downward force on the bow.


Yes.

You should add heavy downhaul in these conditions. A full sail aloft will pitch the rig forward in gusts and drive the bows down.

Ease off batten tensions to just remove wrinkles in the pockets when rigging. Lots of downhaul and outhaul to help flatten the sail.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:39 pm
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Location: Sioux Falls South Dakota
No one ever mentions how tight is the boat. A 16 at our beach used to pitch pole constantly, I had a boat of similar age that in the same conditions pitched less and I always wondered why. Then one day I watched him lift the boat on the beach. He lifted on one hull and the other stayed put until the other was like a foot off the sand. It struck me that it doesn’t matter what you do because the other hull is almost acting independent and continues to dig in. Over the winter he glued his boat, that was 4 years ago and has not pitch poled since. I also bought a 2012 4 years ago and have never pitch poled it either. When the boats are tight you can just push them. If your boat constantly wants to pitch or dig in see how tight the boat is. Should be able to lift at the bow on one hull and the other should raise at the same time. His boat was an 81 and mine was an 83, so we both had old worn boats and through two different was of getting a tight boat we have the same out come. Although it was funny pitching that much and lost all fear of it happening, it did get annoying.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:14 am 
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:28 pm
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Location: Bristol, IN
mmiller wrote:
Yes.
You should add heavy downhaul in these conditions. A full sail aloft will pitch the rig forward in gusts and drive the bows down.
Ease off batten tensions to just remove wrinkles in the pockets when rigging. Lots of downhaul and outhaul to help flatten the sail.

Thanks for the info. Got the 6:1 rigged over the weekend and was able to go out solo in 15+ mph wind. I honestly can't believe the difference, wish I had done this a long time ago. The boat has so much more control in the gusts and very steady. The sail has a much better shape as well. Going out wednesday with a crew, we will see how much it helps.


play wrote:
No one ever mentions how tight is the boat. A 16 at our beach used to pitch pole constantly, I had a boat of similar age that in the same conditions pitched less and I always wondered why. Then one day I watched him lift the boat on the beach. He lifted on one hull and the other stayed put until the other was like a foot off the sand. It struck me that it doesn’t matter what you do because the other hull is almost acting independent and continues to dig in. Over the winter he glued his boat, that was 4 years ago and has not pitch poled since. I also bought a 2012 4 years ago and have never pitch poled it either. When the boats are tight you can just push them. If your boat constantly wants to pitch or dig in see how tight the boat is. Should be able to lift at the bow on one hull and the other should raise at the same time. His boat was an 81 and mine was an 83, so we both had old worn boats and through two different was of getting a tight boat we have the same out come. Although it was funny pitching that much and lost all fear of it happening, it did get annoying.



Yeah, I've never payed too close of attention to how much flex before the opposite hull moves when lifting the bow, the boat has always felt fairly solid. If I had to guess from memory, I'd say there is about 2-3" of slop between the hulls when lifting one. It will be worth checking out though next time I'm out.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Play: Is there a way to measure the "tightness" of the boat? and, how would you adjust it if your boat is already glued?

When I lift one hull to drain the water out of my 2011, the other hull doesn't come up as high, but I thought that it was just natural. Didn't know there was a way to adjust this and make it tighter.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Check to see if you get any movement between your pylon and the frame. Epoxy or other glues can break down in time.

If your tramp isn't real tight that can allow some flex too

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:34 am 
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:28 pm
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Location: Bristol, IN
Well, went out again yesterday. Applying more downhaul helped tremendously with the bow diving, as well as increasing our average and top speed for the summer. I goofed on the rudder set screw though, the adjustment I went with on the last outing were way too short, causing neutral to lee helm. I put in longer set screws, and there was too much weather helm. Going to need to find some that are right in the middle.

I did check how solid the boat is. There is quite a bit of flex in the boat, so guess that will be the next project, going to have to wait until spring for that.


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