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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:03 pm 
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My wife and I are having a very hard time rigging the mainsail. Please help!


Following some forum suggestions, (I'll post thread links below) we put soap in the mast track, release the outhaul completely, have one person push battens up and the other person do the cleat-pull method in Matt's old video, we can get the sail up so that the nugget is about 6 inches from the hook. But that is the closest we can get! We haven't tried a non-soap lubricant yet, so that's a possibility? Otherwise, we're pretty much at the end of our rope trying to figure that out.

Following another forum suggestion we put the whole rig on the ground and set it up there. In that case, after a half-hour or so of scrunching and working, we got the nugget into the hook. However, when we did this, the boom gooseneck was in the no-man's land, far from the lower mast track. I'll put a photograph link in below. Is the idea that you set the hook and then crank 6 inches out of the sail with the downhaul, hoping that under that amount of force you can somehow manuever the keeper into the lower track? It looks like in Matt's vhs video it cranks about 3 inches, but starts to get pretty tight after that? Not sure how to get all the way to 6 inches.

We did the above with the jib already raised. One forum suggestion was to raise the main first; we tried that in the past, but not in combination with these other tactics, so we will attempt that soon.

It also appeared that the tack plates were installed too close to the mast track, so we replaced those and they are certainly not colliding with the mast track now.

https://imgur.com/KDqduvQ
https://imgur.com/aX1lNfX
https://imgur.com/HiVy6tZ
https://imgur.com/a/xNXiCly

Finally, since we can't get the nugget into the hook we have been raising the sail as high as we can and then cleating the halyard. That seems to put the boom/gooseneck at the top of the lower mast track right before the feeder gap. The problem is that the boom seems really low at this position. It is difficult, even in a crouched position, to avoid the boom as it comes across in a tack. To the point that it seems dangerous to me and I do not feel comfortable bringing guests onto the boat.

We feel that unless we can figure out a reasonable way to do this, we'll need to cut 6 inches off the top of the sail, reinstall the head plate, and have the mainsail AND the boom/gooseneck sit in the upper mast track. If anyone has done this we could use some advice about sail stitching for strain relief and load spreading at the head.

Thanks in advance!


some of the other threads I've followed that are related to this:
https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=65168
https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64677
https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=65167


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:38 pm 
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Location: New Hampshire
It would be nice to find someone with some experience to see what's going on. One question of you that I don't think has been asked is how well does the sail come down? Is it stubborn about coming down as well as going up? If it hates coming down as much as it does going up, it's probably binding somewhere.

Way to check that the track isn't bent somewhere is take a bolt and grind it down so that it slides into the track at the base. Slide it up the track and see whether it binds or becomes lose. The track should be a relatively constant gap without change. Way to check the sail is watch as it feeds in and see whether there are areas that bunch. Sometimes threads break and material will gather.

Have you tried hooking the nub with no sail on the halyard? It's worth some practice to get the feel of the process without the complication of the sail.

I have two sails and one of mine hates having the lower gooseneck inserted into the mast. I end up in the same situation that you do. A large screwdriver inserted through the gooseneck gives me something to grab. Tightening the mainsheet will sometimes enable the downhaul to pull it down. Worse case scenario is some days the gooseneck just barely goes in and the downhaul will hold it in place. Worst case scenario I can think of (which I've never had to do) is take one of those zip ties and wrap it through the gooseneck and around the mast and tighten.

Before you cut your sail, find someone who can come look at this. I don't know where you're located, but usually there's someone close by.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Older sail, it’s possible the boltrope has shrunken somewhat making things a little more difficult. I don’t see anything totally unreasonable going on in the pictures. It’s normal to have to pull on some downhaul to get the gooseneck installed in the lower mast track. Make sure you have at least a 3:1 purchase on the downhaul to make it easier to pull down. You can also use the maknsheet to assist. I would definitely shoot the entire luff track and possibly the bolt rope with a healthy dose of silicone lube. Also, the boom on the 16 tends to run quite low especially if you have a lot of mast rake. If it’s too low for you, you can move the shrouds up in the chain plates and rake the mast forward a little to bring the boom up.

sm


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:49 pm 
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When did the Hobie mast head have a guide at the top of it? My 84 doesn’t have that. I know that you have to pull out from the mast when the sail has reached the top to get the bead over and under the fork and then move up to the mast to get it captured in the fork. Could it be that the guide at the top of the mast head is keeping the halyard from being pulled forward enough to be captured under the fork? I’ve never seen a guide at the top of the mast like that so, just wondering if that could be causing the issue.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:46 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
That guide is definitely not a Hobie part. You could be right that it may be impeding the halyard pull. I would take it off.

sm


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:55 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
So from what I read when the mast and sail were on the ground you STILL had a real hard time getting the sail up the mast?

If so there is really something weird going on.

If you measure the gap on the mast where the bolt rope goes in what is that measurement? It should be pretty consistent all the way up.

I just measured my 4 masts and they vary from 1/8" to as high as 1/4" on the mast I have been using the most.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:07 am 
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A1cnc wrote:
I just measured my 4 masts and they vary from 1/8" to as high as 1/4" on the mast I have been using the most.


According to the engineer drawings Matt Miller supplied in https://static.hobiecat.com/web_uploads ... 1489712178 the measurement is 0.190". This is just a bit wider than 3/16", which is 0.1875". It's very easy over time for a bump against the track to bend one of the sides a bit for a short distance. As clearance between the bolt rope on the sail is somewhat tight, reducing this gap even a little bit can cause a bind in raising and lowering the sail.

As you're feeding in the sail, notice exactly when it binds and stop. When it binds, look at the head of the sail to observe the track and the bolt rope to observe it. Unless the cumulative effect of the bolt rope is causing the binding or there is some mistake in your technique causing a pull on the sail, the binding point should show a narrowing of the track or a widening of the bolt.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Is there another 16 sailing anywhere near you that you could ask to hoist your sail and see if it goes up right in their mast. Tape a coat hanger to the end of your main sheet and feed/pull it up the track, see if it hangs up or has excessive drag. Need to figure out if it's the mast or sail.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:02 am 
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Location: Sodus NY
The plates at the bottom of your sail should be riveted in place. This should be repaired first.
There is a non-standard bolt through your top pulley on your mast. Make sure the pulley turns freely.
Use crc silicone spray available at Walmart in the automotive section as a cleaner/ lubricant. Soak a rag with it and cram as much as you can in the track leaving a flap out the track to draw it the full length of the mast.

The jib makes no difference on raising the main.
While raising the sail, prefeed (push up) each baton before pulling on the halyard.

Once the sail is up the down haul needs significant tension to get the gooseneck into the track. 3:1 was the stock setup. Allmost all racers have 6:1 downhauls rigged. On an older boat like yours you can get 3:1 by running the rope through the center of the horn cleat, back to the ring and then back down to the horn cleat. As someone else advised you can sheet the main blocks hard to help pull the sail down.

If you are still having trouble compare the slot position in the mast with another boat. There were some that were off from the factory.

Cheers
Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:57 am 
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One thing I noticed in your pictures is that there are no plastic ends on the gooseneck. I always had a problem with the gooseneck hanging up until I bought the plastic guide pieces with a long screw that allowed the gooseneck to slide in the groove easily. I doubt that it is part of your problem but it might help.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:35 pm 
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We discussed lowering the sail. It is easier than raising, but still stops and sticks in some sections.

I have been thinking about putting the mast on the ground, and running the sail's lower cord up the mast track, and then running the luff cord through the boom track.

There is one other hobie in the area. I don't know who they are, but maybe I could cold knock on their door and ask for help.

jclarkdawe wrote:
It would be nice to find someone with some experience to see what's going on. One question of you that I don't think has been asked is how well does the sail come down? Is it stubborn about coming down as well as going up? If it hates coming down as much as it does going up, it's probably binding somewhere.

Way to check that the track isn't bent somewhere is take a bolt and grind it down so that it slides into the track at the base. Slide it up the track and see whether it binds or becomes lose. The track should be a relatively constant gap without change. Way to check the sail is watch as it feeds in and see whether there are areas that bunch. Sometimes threads break and material will gather.

Have you tried hooking the nub with no sail on the halyard? It's worth some practice to get the feel of the process without the complication of the sail.

I have two sails and one of mine hates having the lower gooseneck inserted into the mast. I end up in the same situation that you do. A large screwdriver inserted through the gooseneck gives me something to grab. Tightening the mainsheet will sometimes enable the downhaul to pull it down. Worse case scenario is some days the gooseneck just barely goes in and the downhaul will hold it in place. Worst case scenario I can think of (which I've never had to do) is take one of those zip ties and wrap it through the gooseneck and around the mast and tighten.

Before you cut your sail, find someone who can come look at this. I don't know where you're located, but usually there's someone close by.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:48 am
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Could you send me a photo? I'm not sure which part you're referring to as the guide.

HobieMarty wrote:
When did the Hobie mast head have a guide at the top of it? My 84 doesn’t have that. I know that you have to pull out from the mast when the sail has reached the top to get the bead over and under the fork and then move up to the mast to get it captured in the fork. Could it be that the guide at the top of the mast head is keeping the halyard from being pulled forward enough to be captured under the fork? I’ve never seen a guide at the top of the mast like that so, just wondering if that could be causing the issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:38 pm 
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Yes, still very difficult on the ground. Required two people heaving on it to set into the hook.

A1cnc wrote:
So from what I read when the mast and sail were on the ground you STILL had a real hard time getting the sail up the mast?

If so there is really something weird going on.

If you measure the gap on the mast where the bolt rope goes in what is that measurement? It should be pretty consistent all the way up.

I just measured my 4 masts and they vary from 1/8" to as high as 1/4" on the mast I have been using the most.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:42 pm 
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This drawing is fantastic! Thanks so much-- I understand what you mean about 0.190, and will check that with calipers next time I have the boat. I wonder what the right way to open that gap would be, if I should find it to be too small?

I'll start doing some binding experiments to try and isolate whether it is in the sail or the mast.

jclarkdawe wrote:
A1cnc wrote:
I just measured my 4 masts and they vary from 1/8" to as high as 1/4" on the mast I have been using the most.


According to the engineer drawings Matt Miller supplied in https://static.hobiecat.com/web_uploads ... 1489712178 the measurement is 0.190". This is just a bit wider than 3/16", which is 0.1875". It's very easy over time for a bump against the track to bend one of the sides a bit for a short distance. As clearance between the bolt rope on the sail is somewhat tight, reducing this gap even a little bit can cause a bind in raising and lowering the sail.

As you're feeding in the sail, notice exactly when it binds and stop. When it binds, look at the head of the sail to observe the track and the bolt rope to observe it. Unless the cumulative effect of the bolt rope is causing the binding or there is some mistake in your technique causing a pull on the sail, the binding point should show a narrowing of the track or a widening of the bolt.

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:45 pm 
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Yep, you caught me in the middle of a repair job. The plates are now in place.

I purchased some silicone/teflon dry lube spray and will give that a try. I need to clean the dish soap out first unless the rain has done that for me. I'll try the rag thing too, although I think the sail combined with the dish soap has probably done a decent job cleaning the track.

h16bill wrote:
The plates at the bottom of your sail should be riveted in place. This should be repaired first.
There is a non-standard bolt through your top pulley on your mast. Make sure the pulley turns freely.
Use crc silicone spray available at Walmart in the automotive section as a cleaner/ lubricant. Soak a rag with it and cram as much as you can in the track leaving a flap out the track to draw it the full length of the mast.

The jib makes no difference on raising the main.
While raising the sail, prefeed (push up) each baton before pulling on the halyard.

Once the sail is up the down haul needs significant tension to get the gooseneck into the track. 3:1 was the stock setup. Allmost all racers have 6:1 downhauls rigged. On an older boat like yours you can get 3:1 by running the rope through the center of the horn cleat, back to the ring and then back down to the horn cleat. As someone else advised you can sheet the main blocks hard to help pull the sail down.

If you are still having trouble compare the slot position in the mast with another boat. There were some that were off from the factory.

Cheers
Bill


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