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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:13 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
I am bemused at your highly imaginative supposition of the disaster wrought with crotch straps.

The difference is that you are sitting in a kayak and not moving around much. Tim and Sabres are wearing trapeze harnesses and crawling around on the trampoline / trapeezing on a catamaran. Sailing a Hobie Cat catamaran requires a lot more body movement than sailing an Adventure Island. Crotch straps (especially loose ones) are a liability.

Racers often wear rashies over everything to prevent snagging yourself on equipment. Rashies have the added benefit of keeping the PFD from floating up when you end up in the water.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:28 pm 
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MBounds wrote:
tonystott wrote:
I am bemused at your highly imaginative supposition of the disaster wrought with crotch straps.

The difference is that you are sitting in a kayak and not moving around much. Tim and Sabres are wearing trapeze harnesses and crawling around on the trampoline / trapeezing on a catamaran. Sailing a Hobie Cat catamaran requires a lot more body movement than sailing an Adventure Island. Crotch straps (especially loose ones) are a liability.


Thank you, Matt. As it is, trap harnesses like to get caught on pfds, snag a jib block or shroud adjuster, caught on the trap wires when switching sides, the mast rotator or the boom, etc. When you're sitting on the hull, scrambling across the trampoline, pushing off onto the trap wires, sliding in onto the hull, all in quick succession, a crotch strap in particular is a hazard. The trampoline of a Hobie 18 can get very cluttered in a hurried tack in high winds. You learn to get around it with experience, but what about my inexperienced passengers & crew? It's not a pressing concern, but why add another loose article on your person and invite the possibility of one more thing to snag on in the event of a capsize, especially if it's redundant or can be eliminated by proper use of a typical life vest?


Last edited by SabresfortheCup on Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:26 am 
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Sorry, I thought this was the Hobie Island forum. How silly of me. I forgot to take into account trap harnesses, jib blocks, shroud adjusters, trap wires, mast rotator or the boom, etc. because ISLANDS DON'T HAVE ANY OF THIS STUFF.

I repeat, based on Real-life experience, PFDs with crotch straps are very comfortable and practical ON ISLANDS. I do not recommend their use on motorcycles or light aircraft :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:51 am 
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Quote:
based on Real-life experience, PFDs with crotch straps are very comfortable and practical


This is quite true and could become the standard. Some levels of PFD require crotch straps already. They are effective. They also help in recovering a sailor who is overboard. You grab the vest and lift a guy without one, he can slip right out of the vest and be gone.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:40 pm 
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MBounds wrote:
[quote="tonystott"
Image


nice shots, thanks.

sailboat racing is the most fun going slow that I can think of.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:43 pm 
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Herbaldew wrote:
TI_Tom wrote:
Hell, by that logic I would need one on my TI since it's 18' 6"

I think that is correct. In most places, a canoe or kayak over 16' is exempt from that rule. I don't recall reading where a law enforcement officer has expressed their opinion, but mine is that once we put the akas and sails on our TI it quits being a kayak.

Even though I think I am in the wrong, I do NOT carry a throwable with me due to the limited space and will use the excuse "but I thought I was a kayak and exempt" if ever questioned on it. I do have a throwable and would start carrying it if I ever have to use that argument and lose it :D
TI-TOM, I carry a throwable cushion on the TI and the 17' Catamaran.

You can sit on it in front or strap it over the front drive well. We usually pull the front drive anyway, for speed. Makes a great splash guard and knee pad for the crew up there, who is otherwise getting soaked.

On the cats, I put it under the hiking straps and use a couple bungie balls to secure.

If I were smarter, I would just strap a couple to the BOOM. :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:38 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Here in NSW, the only mandatory requirement for a kayak is a PFD (other safety equipment is "recommended if you have room"). For offshore use, 1 inflatable PFD (with leg straps), choice of "horseshoe" type inflatable PFD or foam type PFD.

The local national yachting association sets rules applicable to ocean racing. (Cat 1 is round the world type requirements). I generally have close to category 3 safety equipment (for overnight etc type offshore yacht racing) which includes (in drybags tied to the crossbar)

2 red flares
2 white flares
2 orange dye sea markers
1 really LOUD whistle 100+ decibels, do NOT try this at home!)
1 1.5kg Cooper anchor with 6 feet chain plus scopes of 10, 25 and 50 metres long (obviously joinable)
1 sea anchor drogue
1 first aid kit (fairly comprehensive)
1 hand bearing compass
Tools to tighten or undo everything on board
2 spare ama bungee "plugs" with bungees
1 personal locator beacon
1 Lowrance Link2 waerproof VHF (PFD modified by manufacturer to add loops to attach PLB and VHF)
1 Navionics plotter app on my phone (in waterproof bag round my neck
1 masthead LED white light (3 C cells) attaches to halyard on the mast
1 set diving mask and flippers
1 safety loop ready to assist with reboarding or righting after a capsize
2 "Leatherman" type multitools
2 sharp (serrated) knives, one under my knees in the cockpit, the other in the safety dry bag

No doubt there are items which would add to my safety even further, but I haven't thought of them yet!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:20 am 
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Thanks, Tony.

That is a very helpful list for someone just starting out (like me).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:48 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
No doubt there are items which would add to my safety even further, but I haven't thought of them yet!
Spare bungs! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:26 am 
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Thanks, forgot to list them as well as rudder pins and ama brace bolts, and, nearly forgot extra mast bearing delrin balls (plus a pool noodle section to hold the delrin balls in while on the road.)

BTW, I regularly replace rudder pins, keeping the old ones om board as extra spares (I have only ever broken two, and they were on the same offshore trip!)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:52 am 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
That's my point - the USCG has gone for worst case scenario which means most PFDs are far larger than they need to be .
I don't get the part about a person's weight having anything to do with how much floatation they need in a PFD.

Some people float and some people sink...... It seems to be a density thing......I can easily imagine that somebody weighing 350, but who is mostly fat, would float easily and therefore need less floatation than a "sinker" like me, who can walk around on the bottom of a swimming pool's deep end.

I have several conventional PFDs, but now find myself attracted to manual inflatables....... Use the mouth tube to add just enough air to keep my head above water if my legs or abs were to cramp and wear it like that.......Then, when/if conditions warrent, I can pull the cord to the CO2 inflator for full inflation......

My only reservation is the device's tolerance for double inflation.......I do not feel like I have gotten a definitive answer from any of the manufacturer reps I have spoken with...............and it sure would be a big bite in the butt to pull that cord and have the thing split wide open...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:37 pm 
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Don't forget that you can also let air out of the bladder by inserting the cap backwards. This wouldn't be too difficult to do in the water if you were concerned about double inflation, as the nozzle would be up near your chin.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:37 pm 
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My PFD recently saved my life here's how
I was out sailing my force5 on lake sommerville in Texas, water is still a bit cold by Texas standards. Gusts in the 20s mph cause me to capsize and sick the mast in the mud, being alone on the lake in the cold water I decided to swim the~400yrds to shore to prevent hypothermia, this would not have even been an option if I was without my PFD. Boat had to be left in the lake upside down for over 15 hrs. Waiting on powered rescue. 20 mph gusts and a 180* wind change and the boat never moved, the port rail was about 1' out of the water and I couldn't swim the bow at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:36 am 
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0rion85 wrote:
... I decided to swim the~400yrds to shore to prevent hypothermia, this would not have even been an option if I was without my PFD.
Because of the downside risk of getting hypothermic and then needing the PFD to stay afloat?

Otherwise, I would have thought that the chances of getting to shore would have been much better and the time much shorter without the sea-anchor effect of a PFD. ..... ??

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:59 pm 
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daft wrote:
Avoiding head immersion with pfd can double the time you have before hypothermia sets in, based on USCG conclusions at end of pdf http://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/coldwater1.pdf . Also a head above water much delays mental fogginess.
Somewhere, a long time ago I read (The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich?) about how the Nazis repeatedly froze captured Polish pilots to death in cold brine - studying the process of dying of hypothermia. .... One conclusion was that keeping the base of the brain above a certain temperature was absolutely critical - and the fallout was insulated headgear for German pilots. ..... Personally, I do not go out on cold water without a neoprene balaclava - not necessarily on, but pulled down around my neck so it can be raised quickly.

Quote:
As for swimming speed, I wonder if footwear is a major speed killer. I know bumptoe sandals can almost neutralize the kickstroke needed to reboard a kayak; maybe a compromise is to clip footwear to your pfd cheststrap and do a backstroke. If max swimming speed is needed, I suppose you could trail a pfd on a lanyard.
It's got to depend on the footwear. .... To reduce it to the ludicrous, mountaineering boots clearly inhibit swimming..... but the beach shoes that I used to wear for windsurfing and which I wear when paddling my surf ski actually enhance swimming..... it's like wearing very small swim fins.

Quote:
Those of us who grew up playing in frigid water may cringe at all the abuse of the term hypothermia. Supposedly anyone in the slightest cooling discomfort is a time bomb facing apocalypse at body temp 95f, but we have spent extended times in bitterly cold water, sometimes with ice in it, and without wimpy wetsuits which I have never used in my life. I think it's an attitude of how you adapt to cold shock, and in an accident you shouldn't prematurely give in to it just because it's the stereotype - fight back.
There are huge, huge differences among people's tolerance for cold water....Something about "brown fat"..... Lynn Cox, for instance, swam the Bering Strait in 43-44F water basically naked. .... And she was in the water for a little over 2 hours. ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynne_Cox

That being said, I don't count myself among the lucky ones and the "Rule of 50's" rings true to me: 50 yards to swim, 50-degree water, 50-50 chance a naked swimmer is going to survive.

To me, the basic fact of life around cold water is dressing for a certain period of immersion. ..... "Certain Period" because you're going to die eventually - it's just a matter of time.... but after a paddling session, I will typically get off in neck-deep water and fiddle around with my ski for as long as it takes for the cold to really hit home.... that keeps me more-or-less calibrated. ..... I think that some of the most dangerous days around cold water are those beautiful days when the air temp is up in the sixties - but the water is still lethal. ..... On those days, one tends to overheat when paddling hard... and is tempted to dress more for comfort in the air than survival in the water.

Quote:
it can take 30 minutes or more for most adults to become even mildly hypothermic in ice water.
Then after 30-120 minutes your head fogs and you drown, or if you have pfd you last up to 180 min til cardiac arrest. Actually some of these sources bring up interesting factors based on who you are or what you do that can improve or worsen this timebomb script.
Seems like the tradeoff is between time in the water and the speed with which one loses heat......i.e. I can conceive of a choice between towing my PFD and maybe making it shore in time and just floating around out there and dying in the water......

Also, just to end on a cheery note, there are stories of people who actually made it to shore - and then died some time later because, by the time they got out of the water, they had lost so much heat and their metabolism had slowed so much that their body could not generate enough heat to get them back up to operating temperature.

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Last edited by PeteCress on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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