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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:25 pm 
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If you don't want to pitchpole a Weta downwind, then never, ever sheet out. That just puts a "barn door" out to the wind and it can drive you over. What usually happens to most that pitchpole one is that they start downwind with the screecher out and as they go higher to power up they overdo it. Instead of immediately steering down and sheeting in, they sheet out, drive the bows in and that's all she wrote. Capsizes usually occur on a beam reach (the multi-hull death zone) as the boat gets overpowered and they don't react fast enough. The small amas aren't enough to keep you from going over, particularly if you're sitting in the cockpit. And then you have the reverse capsize as that video showed in a couple instances, where you get a couple people on the windward side of the boat and get a 180 degree wind (censored) and suddenly you have two people on the leeward side. Again, that little ama doesn't have enough volume to counteract the gust and the weight of two people. Over you go. Same sort of stuff happens on a cat, too.

But this is all stuff you can learn to avoid with some practice.

The Weta mast bends very easily with the cunningham. The hounds are at least a third of the way down and that top third can really be pulled back which twists the top of the sail off. Downwind you would rarely sheet out the main very much. There is a sweet spot about a foot from center that gets you the best speed at some angle to the wind. If you get overpowered, you sheet the main in and turn the stern to the wind - the boat will nearly stop. So downwind if you get overpowered, you sheet in and head down, which is the exact opposite of what you'd do if you get overpowered upwind. There you would sheet out and head up. I just get as far out on the rail as I can and play the mainsheet to maintain the amount of heel that gets me the best speed.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:20 pm 
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I appreciate the thoughts. Sailing a 17' daysailer now, avoiding capsize is a concern in 10 -12 knots+ so it seems that either of these boats will up the wind range considerably!

The feedback I'm getting on the Getaway seems to be saying you all are sailing at 15+ knots and mostly keeping the boat flat. That is very interesting and could mean the boat will handle the higher wind I'm looking for.
Trailering is the other thing I'm thinking about. I would be mostly trailering whichever boat I get and sometimes taking it on 3 - 4 hour road trips.
How hard is it to put up the mast solo, I see there are some schemes to use the winch.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Hobie offers at least three different mast raising systems - gin pole types, and they make raising the mast single handed easy, and safe. Well worth the money and cheaper than having to replace a dropped and damaged mast.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Location: Benicia, CA
[quote="Tom Kirkman"]If you don't want to pitchpole a Weta downwind, then never, ever sheet out. That just puts a "barn door" out to the wind and it can drive you over. What usually happens to most that pitchpole one is that they start downwind with the screecher out and as they go higher to power up they overdo it. Instead of immediately steering down and sheeting in, they sheet out, drive the bows in and that's all she wrote. Capsizes usually occur on a beam reach (the multi-hull death zone) as the boat gets overpowered and they don't react fast enough. The small amas aren't enough to keep you from going over, particularly if you're sitting in the cockpit. And then you have the reverse capsize as that video showed in a couple instances, where you get a couple people on the windward side of the boat and get a 180 degree wind (censored) and suddenly you have two people on the leeward side. Again, that little ama doesn't have enough volume to counteract the gust and the weight of two people. Over you go. Same sort of stuff happens on a cat, too.


That continues to be my issue with furling spinnakers. The flat cut coupled with the fixed tack means that they have very little lift at the bows. Sure it is convenient, but it does drive the bows down instead of lifting them up. You can help a little by letting halyard out, but all that really does is make you drive deeper to keep the spin full. I like the convenience of a furling spin, but it makes boat handling less safe. My new boat comes with a furling spin but I expect I'll make a snuffer system and a fuller spin for it before next summer. Truth to tell, I raced single handed with furling spins for half a decade on my F242, so I did enjoy the ability to fly a spin single handed and convenience of furling it; but it made me sail more conservatively than I would have liked. I still won a few, though.

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SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:59 am 
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on the weta - If I were worried about capsize in high wind, I just might not launch the spinnaker. And maybe I could get the feel for staying on a higher heading.
sounds like the real solution is to make the floats bigger! They are fiberglass... would this be the killer mod on these boats I wonder?
I am still trying to sail both boats and hopefully it will become clearer by experiencing them. I do appreciate all the ideas,
Jeff


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:05 am 
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Location: South Boardman, Mi
Jeff,

If you plan on doing any club racing, I would recommend getting the boat that is most popular in your area. It is simply more fun to sail against evenly matched boats.

If club racing isn't a concern, you should consider a hobie 18, with wings. The wings keep things much drier, and the bows have much better buoyancy than the 16's which allow you to drive harder down wind.

As far as raising the mast on these boats, it doesn't take too much. I am not particularly strong (can bench press ~90lbs) and I can step the mast on the 16, or the 18 with no issues. If you are alone you will have to set up a line to hold the mast up, so you can attach the forestay after stepping the mast. If you have a partner, then it is even easier as one of you can attach the forestay while the other holds the mast up.

With practice the H18 can be rigged in ~20min, the 16 and the getaway should take a few minutes less.

Joe


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:21 am 
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thanks Joe,
In this case not interested in racing. Nothing very close, Lightnings not too far away though.
Looking for a fun boat that can handle higher winds, my daysailer is not much fun over 10 -12 knots. Also trying to keep trailering and setup not too bad so was thinking of the smaller getaway, but I should look over the 18 as well.
Wish I had a good place to just leave it all setup but the constant trailering and setup are a concern making me think about the smaller boats. All tradeoffs though...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:05 am 
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jeff05 wrote:
on the weta - If I were worried about capsize in high wind, I just might not launch the spinnaker. And maybe I could get the feel for staying on a higher heading.
sounds like the real solution is to make the floats bigger! They are fiberglass... would this be the killer mod on these boats I wonder?
I am still trying to sail both boats and hopefully it will become clearer by experiencing them. I do appreciate all the ideas,
Jeff


The Weta doesn't need a "solution" - It's fine as is. Making the amas larger would add weight and slow the boat. The answer isn't to upset a very good design, but to learn how to sail the boat. You aren't going to find many, if any, high performance boats that are impossible to capsize. That isn't the point of having a high performance boat. If you want speed and excitement, then you need a boat that can be overpowered.

In sailing with so many others I have found the primary causes of capsizes to be among these: Cleating the mainsheet; presenting too much sail to too much wind; sailing in conditions beyond the sailors skill set; and failure to pay attention to wind and water signs.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:21 am 
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That has been my experience re capsizing in dinghies too.
glad you like the boat, I want to try it out myself.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:52 pm 
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jeff05 wrote:
The feedback I'm getting on the Getaway seems to be saying you all are sailing at 15+ knots and mostly keeping the boat flat. That is very interesting and could mean the boat will handle the higher wind I'm looking for.
Trailering is the other thing I'm thinking about. I would be mostly trailering whichever boat I get and sometimes taking it on 3 - 4 hour road trips.
How hard is it to put up the mast solo, I see there are some schemes to use the winch.


I had reef points put in my Getaways sail last winter, by North Sails. This way I can reduce sail with my littler grand kids aboard. I tried it out in some pretty stiff winds-25 and gusty-with 4 adults on board. No problem. I think it was actually faster, because I wasn't spilling all the wind.

I trailer my boat. I take off the rudders and bob, and it takes me, alone, about an hour to setup or take down. With my wife along, cut that to 30 minutes.

I use a maststepper 2 to winch up the mast. With the comp-tip and bob, it's pretty iffy for me to muscle it up. If there's another person with me, we just lift it, and setup time goes to 15 or 20 minutes.

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"Firefly" - 2012 Hobie Getaway with wings and spinnaker


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:39 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
You should also consider the Hobie Islands. There is nothing like them for versatility. Roller furling sail, spinnaker option and especially the MirageDrive.


I 2nd this.

If you've never tried one, you must at least take a test ride.

I've had 6 different sailboats over the years. And this thing is so much fun. So nice to see a smile on my wife's face when I ask her to go out rather than a worried look saying do we really have to.

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2017 Tandem Island in Red. Lake sailing/kayaking in NH only.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Coming from a dingy, he wouldn't like the Islands. Islands are great boats for recreation, not performance multihulls, though.

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SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:19 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
Coming from a dingy, he wouldn't like the Islands. Islands are great boats for recreation, not performance multihulls, though.


I came from a Force 5 dingy. Good riddance. As well as a Windsurfer too.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Happy you found something you like. The OP (see subject line above) has winnowed the arena down to two boats out of the plethora of those available. Be kind and not confuse the issue with something else. Islands are fun, functional sailing kayaks. Not performance multihulls. Truthfully, a Getaway is more of a SunTraker party boat that happens to use sails for motive power than a performance multihull; but it has decent performance when handled well. I know I was surprised that it pointed pretty well considering it had no boards. Weta is more of a dingy experience and I think the OP would have a ball with one. My preference is a Getaway since the waters I sail are cold and a weta is a wet ride.

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SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Thanks for all your ideas. On the Hobie side I chose the getaway as a practical and cost effective option. It could be a different beach cat if there are significant performance (or better high wind sailing) advantages without too much more setup time or other disadvantages.


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