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 Post subject: getaway w/ hobie 16 mast
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:07 pm 
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Hello all, long time reader but finally created an account and my first post! ;)

After turtling my Getaway in SF bay in some stiff windws and breaking the comptip about 80% of the way up I finally managed to find a replacement mast (couldn't fathom the $1400+ for new comptip and luff track). I know this was discussed in other posts but though I'd post my experience here with pics and ask a few Qs to make sure I'm not doing anything too stupid!

Here's me cutting about 7.5" off bottom of the mast (chosen so mast tang should continue to fit standard getaway shrouds+forestay):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/P8qrF62edo3H5UdP6

Cleaning it out for new mast base:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Bmd1XUhSdTTcwQEg9

Took a little bit of hammering and pressure with vise to get the getaway base on the H16 mast:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMbepeCEBkxRw8nN8

I used (an adhesive) sealant and 4 rivets + rivet caps to attach.

I've since moved cleats over, raised it up without issue and am figuring out the halyard. I know the hobie 16 mast is not raked back at top like the getaways but hopefully doesn't affect sail too drastically.

Here's mast getting raised first time with my new gerry-rigged mast stepper (still a work in progress!):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/miZ1A51dgDmYzdbs5

For the halyard, seems difficult to continue using the getaway halyard as the tops of the masts are different (different shape, can't use the getaway wheel + bob, stopper on getaway halyard doesn't fit through H16 mast wheel) so I'll probably stick with the standard hobie 16 mast top and use a ~25' wire rope (7x19, 1/8"?) attached to a rope halyard at base to cleat off.

At this point mast is still 10-12" taller than old mast. I may just leave it that way and crimp on a couple stops on the halyard so I can raise sail higher or lower based on wind. But if it doesn't work out for some reason I can drill out mast top and lower it down a foot--or if there's a way to attach another mast top with bob on there that might be useful (I prefer the standard getaway rope halyard and the bob seems like a nice bonus).

Does this all seem reasonable? Any suggestions?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:34 am 
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Looks like a lot of good decisions so far. Didn't you have to remove the gooseneck for the boom and cut a new mainsail feed slot? I'd also keep the extra length and if this is all aluminum tube, I wouldn't be concerned about the added compression by cleating halyard at mast base instead of mast head--if concerned about the compressive force, though, you can make the halyard 2:1 to give some reduction in compression. Will make it easier to reef since sailing in SF Bay will require frequent reefing. And I'd just use a 3/16" dyneema line for the halyard.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:44 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
Looks like a lot of good decisions so far. Didn't you have to remove the gooseneck for the boom and cut a new mainsail feed slot? I'd also keep the extra length and if this is all aluminum tube, I wouldn't be concerned about the added compression by cleating halyard at mast base instead of mast head--if concerned about the compressive force, though, you can make the halyard 2:1 to give some reduction in compression. Will make it easier to reef since sailing in SF Bay will require frequent reefing. And I'd just use a 3/16" dyneema line for the halyard.



No boom on Getaway, so not an issue.

I have a 16 mast (appropriately shortened) on my Getaway as well. Works great!

I cut some off the top and some off the bottom to match the tang height and overall length to the original Getaway mast.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:32 pm 
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The 16 has a boom which is not needed on the Getway

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Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:57 am 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
Looks like a lot of good decisions so far. Didn't you have to remove the gooseneck for the boom and cut a new mainsail feed slot?


The gooseneck and boom (that came from the guy I bought it with) were separate. Seems like the gooseneck just slides in/out of the mainsail feed slot? I thought I might play around with a boom just to see if there's any worthwhile benefits but maybe not, I really do like not having to worry about that safety factor with younger sailers around.

There is a mainsail feed slot and seems about the right height (perhaps a few inches higher) but it works well.

tpdavis473 wrote:
I'd also keep the extra length and if this is all aluminum tube, I wouldn't be concerned about the added compression by cleating halyard at mast base instead of mast head--if concerned about the compressive force, though, you can make the halyard 2:1 to give some reduction in compression. Will make it easier to reef since sailing in SF Bay will require frequent reefing. And I'd just use a 3/16" dyneema line for the halyard.


The existing the mast head hook on there does seem to work currently if I use the H16 wire halyard so didn't have to worry about compression force or how well I riveted the cleat at the mast base. That halyard looks a little aged so I'll probably replace it with something similar (26' wire length with a stopper or two depending on if I add a reef point), and then hook on a rope for the bottom section so I can cleat that on and arrange it on the fly if I ever need to reef from the water--which will probably be a pretty interesting experience, especially if I want to try that singlehanded!

Thanks for the advise!


Last edited by esquid2 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:30 pm 
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I also replaced my getaway mast with a H16 mast and did pretty much exactly what you have done. I never trimmed the top. I added a ~8 inch lead to the main halyard and it works great. I've had two getaway halyards break at the rope-wire transition and when that happens the main comes down. The H16 halyard doesn't have this weakness. So, I think you are better off keeping the H16 halyard. If you want the bob, hobie sells a generic mounting kit that will work on the H16 mast.

David


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:23 pm 
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I would not have stuck with the getaway shrouds and instead would have gone to dyneema shrouds. That would have allowed me to use the entire H16 all aluminum mast length. I also would have had a new mainsail made with a couple reef points and probably do a pintop main instead of eliptical/square top. Also change the main halyard to 2:1 and cleat at the mast base like most other boats. Might have had trouble balancing the boat so the hound for the jib might have had to be moved up or down (so obviously a new jib design--be nice to figure out a self tacker. Getaway as designed is a fun and easy boat. Quick to rig, fast enough on the water, plenty of Real Estate for people/stuff and a reasonably dry ride. Few flaws. Flaws (for me) are the "toy" color sails and tramps and graphics; the float on top of the mast that says, "watch out, I don't know what I'm doing"; the hook to cleat the mast at the top. But those are personal foibles but they were enough to make me sell the boat and get a better boat for more than twice the money. But, honestly, the new boat isn't twice the fun.

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Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:08 am 
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WRT adding 2:1 for main halyard, how do folks rig that? Is it wire halyard with thimbles on both sides going from main sail head over top of mast, then a rope going from base of mast through thimble and back down to base of mast? Or something else? I can see that if I did have to reef from the water and the halyard is seated in a hook at the top of the mast there's no way I'm getting that off given really need to head to front of boat with main halyard in order to unseat it and that's unlikely to be successful in any conditions I want to reef in.

Sounds like with aluminum mast there's no worry about compressive force (can't understand physics of how a 2:1 halyard would reduce that). So in that case if this seems reasonable I guess would just want to remove the mast head hook to get it out of the way and reduce chafe on other rigging up there.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:47 am 
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Would be an easy mod to do. On the bracket that holds the masthead float, attach a bow shackle. Tie one end of the halyard (you will need a different halyard, I suggest just buying a length of dyneema that is 3 times the length of the mast) or capture an eye splice in that bow shackle. On the halyard use a free running D Headboard shackle then reeve the halyard through the sheave at the top of the mast and back down to the mast base. Like you said, get rid of the hook. To hoist the mainsail attach the free running D shackle to the mainsail head grommet (make sure there are no twists in the halyard). Hoist main like normal except you will be pulling twice the rope. Cleat off at the mast base cleat. It reduces the mast compression by 1/4 since you are only lifting half the load with the halyard that you tie off (the other half is tied to the top of the mast).

You are absolutely correct that you would never really be safe in trying to unhook the halyard while underway in wind/waves that would make you want to reef. Probably why Hobie doesn't offer reefing systems in their mainsail--they figure we're smart enough to stay ashore when it is that nasty or potentially that nasty.

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SeaRail 19
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:27 pm 
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Any non-hooked halyard will have the same mast compression regardless of purchase. It will be about twice that of a hooked system. A hooked system will give you better performance and strength. If you are sailing hard in a blow with a crew of 4 double trapping on the wings... go hooked.

If you go hookless get a stiff rope or use a combination of wire rope and rope. 26' of rope can stretch quite a bit. If you go with a 2:1 copy the jib haylard setup on the H16 or the main halyard setup on the 21SC

The 21SC is a hookless setup with a boom furler. It works OK, but when you run lots of downhaul tension and sheet in hard the halyard stretches and the sail creeps down the mast. If you have a comp tip this can cause the head of the sail to slide below the reinforced luff track, pop out and jam. Other than that it works well.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:31 am 
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You have to look at the force diagram to see how the 2:1 reduces compression forces. And, yah, I agree that it is better for the unstayed mast to hook at the top. The H16 masts are notorious for bending out of column in competition. But if you don't like righting the boat and still want to sail in bigger winds a reefing system is good to have and with that hooked main halyard, you just can't reef safely while underway. Oh, you could jerry rig some kluge like attaching the main halyard to a pulley, then have a secondary halyard run over the pulley down to the mainsail grommet and tie off that secondary halyard at the mast base and use that system on days where you might need to reef.

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Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:07 am 
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There are 2 kinds of 3:1 systems. On the old H16 Jib setup and on the 21SC main halyard the 3:1 blocks are located near the bottom of the mast. On the new H16's the blocks are located between the upper pully and the head of the sail. With the new H16 setup your halyard must be 3x as long but the compression forces on the mast from the halyard are 1/3 as great.

The reason for the reduced compression has to to with where the mechanical advantage is applied. With the old system the advantage is achieved with blocks at the bottom of the mast that pull on the halyard. The blocks simply allow the sailor to pull harder. The compression force from the halyard is equal to the force on the head of the sail. With the new system the blocks are located between the upper pully and the head of the sail. In this manner the mechanical advantage is applied directly between the mast and the sail head. The halyard running down the mast has a 3:1 advantage over the head of the sail and thus the compression forces from the halyard are 1/3 the forces on the head of the mast.

No endorsement of Murrays, but they had a good picture of the new H16 halyard setup.
Image

Personally I really like the hook because it reduces mast compression and doesn't require tons of fancy rope which costs $$ and is harder to secure while sailing. The hook is also much stiffer, with a 3:1 halyard the head of your sail will slowly creep down when you sheet in or downhaul.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:00 am 
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Yah, but we were talking about the mainsail halyard setup.

One of the other reasons I dislike hobie's mainsail halyard is that it only lasts a couple seasons. In the distant past (last century) the two part halyard where you spliced wire (that doesn't stretch) onto a rope (that did) is what was standard-and what Hobie continues to use today. This century's standard is to use much smaller diameter (less windage) dyneema or spectra core which doesn't stretch along the whole length. The loads on Hobie Getaway mainsail are so low that you could use an 1/8" diameter dyneema halyard. You'd get at least 5 seasons before needing replacement for what you pay for hobie's last century design. For example, plain dyneema 1/8" sells for 55 bucks for 100 feet.

The Getaway doesn't use a jib hoist. You are supposed to preload the jib luff (by guessing). It actually works OK that way since the Getaway isn't designed for competition--doesn't even use a zipper luff; the forestay is built into the jib luff.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:54 am 
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Here's a pic with the reefable sail now. Still boomless and straight stick H16 mast. Above the second batten gives a fair bit of reprieve. Bit of a gamble switching sheet to new clue if we're on the water but hasn't been too much of a problem as long as I have a pretty decent crew to manage helm while I do it.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/74HRrhTeep3UdccG8


Use the original (rope) getaway halyard for a 2:1 halyard setup attached to ring at end of of the H16 wire halyard. Both ends of original rope halyard lead back to mast base (one on stock cleat, other on cam cleat which makes reefing easier).

Only thing I don't like about the reefing setup was the mid-sail eyelets are too small, getting some line threaded through them while bouncing around on water is more of a chore than it should be.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:15 pm 
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So let me get this straight:
You cut 7 1/2 off the bottom, put the new/old Getaway mast base in the 16 mast (tight fit??) then had zero trouble with the mast feed. The Getaway side stays and forestay/jib fit exactly like it did on the Getaway mast right?

Next, I don't understand why you didn't shorten the top of the mast to be the same overall length as the Getaway mast? 26' 6" vs 25'. Why?


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