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 Post subject: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:52 am
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In case anyone else is interested, there is a group of us working with a sail maker to come up with a performance jib for the Wave. The goal is to design a jib that can make the wave better in light wind and provide additional power to those sailors who could use it. We have researched the web, read threads, watched videos and spoken with wave sailors that own jibs. Despite some contradictory statements, a jib seems like an improvement. For example, Rob (tradisrad) who posted that his stock jib was useful in all wind speeds. In speaking with Rob, he did mention maybe a larger jib would be better. We emailed Geoff and asked if there was anything he would change to his current jib, which we believe is his 3rd jib. He said it was great the way it is, but is considering one with a larger foot. So as a group we think Geoff’s current jib with a larger foot is a good starting point. Geoff has provided a great deal of insight in this process.

We are writing this post in hopes that we might get additional input designing a higher performing jib sail. We would love to hear from Matt, with Hobie, though we know the Wave was never intended to be a performance boat, many of us treat them as such.

Additionally, if any one else would like to be actively involved in the design or simply notified when the sail is ready, we welcome you.

Notes:
We know there is no one jib sail that meets all conditions. We are focusing on the lower wind days to increase the frequency and quality of times the Wave may be sailed.

We want to limit expenses and changes to the boat, so we are suggesting using the existing locations of the jib tack, jib head and jib cam cleats, but understand that a separate jib bridal will required, as Geoff broke his jib cross beam early on.

If the jib foot was lengthened, a window in the sail would likely be necessary as visibility is a critical safety factor

The bow spreader might need reinforcement to avoid damage to the Wave.

There will be additional strain on the bow eyelets and may require reinforcement.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada
Cool.

I'll be following the progress. If you are making a notification-when-ready list, put me on it!

A potential customer.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:48 am
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Location: Southern Ontario
I too am interested in this.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:14 am 
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 9:49 am
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Location: Eastern PA
Speculation and guesswork:

I have wondered whether a solution for attaching a jib bridle is to have it attached at the two ends of the spreader, not directly to the bow eyelets. If you put an eye strap close to each end of the spreader you'd prevent the bar from simply bending in the middle but the pull on the bow eyelets will be closer to vertical - I think. The horizontal component of the pull will cause a compression load on the bar rather than a sideways pull on the bow eyelets. One unknown is that the tang the bar fits into will act a lever changing the force direction, but it might be countered by the pull from the mast bridle.

Andy


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:00 am 
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Location: BC, Canada
Good idea on the use of the spreader bar but may require further complexity in the execution.

On my boat at least, when sitting on the trailer, the spreader bar fits quite loosely in the tangs, resting on the tips of the tangs. Only when under load (mast and sails up) does the force from the fore-stay "pull" the hulls together so that the hulls fit snugly against the spreader bar with the forces spread all the way to the base of the tang. Quite ingenious on the part of the Hobie engineers.

But if the jib bridle is attached only to the spreader bar ends, and the jib luff is tightened up there may be little to no force remaining on the fore-stay to pull the hulls together, meaning that the forces could be on the tip of one or the other tang (or both). There will probably need to be some other way to snug up the hulls against the spreader bar.

Geoff's method of attaching the jib bridle to the tangs also serves to pull the hulls together, but I think he has reinforced his attachments to the hull.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:48 am 
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I recently had a jib made using dimensions fairly close to those mentioned by Geoff Victor in his youtube post. The dimensions I used are Luff - 150", Leech - 128" and Foot 69". These dimensions already create a significant overlapping of the mast so I would be very cautious in using a much larger foot dimension as it may present difficulty in clearing the jib around the mast during a tack. My jib has 5 plunger style brass hanks with the first one positioned at 60" above the tack with the remaining 4 evenly spaced up to the head. To keep rigging as simple as possible I am using the eyelet on the spreader bar. However, I reinforced the spreader bar by sliding an one piece aluminum tube (reinforcing bar (cost $20), it's ID is very close to the OD of the spreader bar - same length as spreader bar) over the spreader bar. The eyelet was removed from the spreader bar prior to this step. I then placed 2 rivets to hold the reinforcing bar over the spreader bar essentially making it one assembly. Then I reinstalled the eyelet with the rivets going through both the reinforcing bar and the spreader bar. This should provide sufficient strength as a connecting point for the jib tack. I also converted to a 2:1 sheet by attaching 2 Harken 22mm micro blocks to the clew via 2 2.5 dyneema soft shackles (less hardware flying around the better). The 2:1 sheet system created the need for a longer jib sheet and currently I am using about 35'....still experimenting on this one. The jib tack attaches to the eyelet via another soft shackle. So far I am satisfied with this configuration and the most notable change in performance is that tacking is much easier and acceleration out of the tack is better.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Sounds interesting

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:05 am 
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Location: Eastern PA
From all this research, was there any consensus on whether back-winding a jib helped to tack in difficult conditions? That would sell me on it more than a bit of extra power. I almost got washed into a pier last weekend because it would not come about in the heavy chop. I had to jibe around at the last minute.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm
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Location: Benicia, CA
Do you plan on keeping the existing bridle/forestay arrangement? It'd be useful, I think, to shorten the bridle and lengthen the forestay so you can hank on directly....otherwise you might consider adding another hound higher up on the mast; but there's nothing that can accept chainplate sort of loads on the bow spreader without reinforcing along the length...

I suggest staying with standard dacron cloth...10% camber placed 30% aft of the luff; crosscut design. I'd stick with less than 10% mast overlap related to foot length. You will need to be able to load the halyard in order to use the sail upwind effectively...check out the AI/TI discussions about how difficult it is to keep luff tension with only a noodle of a mast and no spreaders to keep the mast in column.

A free flying design like a screecher or code zero might be also something to consider; but you won't be able to point well with it.

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SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:54 am 
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leecea wrote:
From all this research, was there any consensus on whether back-winding a jib helped to tack in difficult conditions? That would sell me on it more than a bit of extra power. I almost got washed into a pier last weekend because it would not come about in the heavy chop. I had to jibe around at the last minute.
What i do instead of tacking is gybe.. if you trying to tac right gybe left and go around till you are in the direction you need to be. Work great on our lake that has nasty waves and winds.

I know its not the best way but in heavy winds and waves i stand no chance of tacking the wave...

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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:13 am 
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In response to Leecea's post: I have not had a chance to try the jib in very difficult situations but so far the Wave tacks much better than it did before the jib....like night and day. Because of the significant jib overlap of the mast, backwinding the jib is necessary and a late release is called for. I believe that the backwinding is the largest factor in the improved tacking.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:07 am 
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Location: Brookings, south dakota
I too would like to be included in the talk and final product. I use just the standard jib from Hobie but I have raised the jib up to the top of the pulley on the mast. adding additional line to the cross bar. Even this regular jib from Hobie is night and day help in coming about. I do use a delayed method on switching the jib when coming about.


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:54 pm
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Location: BC, Canada
I think any attempt at tightening the luff of the jib should integrate and tighten the fore stay/bridle as well, otherwise one of the two systems would slacken as the other is tightened.

The sketch below outlines a system of some complexity, but would integrate the whole system as one. I have no idea how it would work in real life - it's only a sketch. It would need to use the heavier reinforced spreader bar of course. It also provides something to which you could attach a jib hank between the bridle.

Image


If the link doesn't work paste this:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QKYxe0S9QccYWIFq2


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:44 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm
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Location: Benicia, CA
leecea wrote:
From all this research, was there any consensus on whether back-winding a jib helped to tack in difficult conditions? That would sell me on it more than a bit of extra power. I almost got washed into a pier last weekend because it would not come about in the heavy chop. I had to jibe around at the last minute.


If you don't want power and just want/need to backwind to aid tacking; just use a small triangle of cloth hanked to the upper bridle and extending short of the mast. Doesn't even have to be a sail.

_________________
R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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 Post subject: Re: A Better Jib?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:12 am 
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Sorry for the Delay in responding to all the great input, no disrespect intended. We are in Central Florida and have been dealing with Hurricane Irma. We are working on an update and hope to post soon. No need to reply to this post as we want this post to be about creating a Performance Jib.

Thanks


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