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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:48 pm 
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siravingmon wrote:
So how big was the original kayak sail, Matt?

I's be very interested to know that as well Matt!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:10 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Stringy:
The revo 13 is also my favorite sailing kayak ( though I sold my last revo last year (budget cuts lol)) and only have my TI anymore). The reason I say that is I felt the standard Hobie kayak sail (~20 sq ft) seems to be size matched for the revo perfectly. However when using the same sail on our oasis I always wanted for more sail, as I couldn't even begin to keep up with my wife in her revo when we were together. Though I have never kayak sailed an adventure kayak with the standard Hobie kayak sail, my impression has always been that the results would be similar to sailing an oasis with the boat being a little large for the standard hobie kayak sail.
The reason I am bringing this up is you guys successfully lobbied with Hobie to keep the dagger board on the revo 16. But I have not heard a peep from any of you formally requesting for a larger 27sq ft kayak sail that would work well on the oasis,revo16, and the pa line of boats (especially the PA 14 and 17), where the Hobie standard kayak sail is too small for those boats.
Alternately they could come out with a furl able wing version of the Hobie kayak sail (like my designs) that could easily propel their larger kayaks. (A 22sq ft wing sail would be equal to a 30 sq ft conventional sail but with much less heeling), I'm just sayin.
Just a suggestion, if nobody asks for it Hobie will be oblivious to the problem.
Maybe you and Stobbo can bring this up at the next Hobie board meeting (lol)
Bob

:lol: :lol: :lol: "Hobie Board Meeting" ......I wish!

Some good points there Bob.
You are right about the underperforming small sail on the larger kayaks but I think you are missing the point that the Adventure being longer, narrower and faster than the Revo13 is a great performer with the small sail.
I'd love to see Hobie add a larger sail to their range but Matt's point about the mast tube is also valid.
In higher winds the unstayed mast wobbles all over the place.
The ability to furl it is the key.
A lot, of course, depends on your local wind conditions. You have posted about your light winds and I know in those conditions I wouldn't even bother sailing. Fortunately here we generally have more favourable winds and I'd say I probably sail more with a furled sail than not. That's why I haven't really done anything about a larger sail.
Though if Hobie were to release an XL sail I wouldn't hesitate to get it! :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:33 am 
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siravingmon wrote:
So how big was the original kayak sail, Matt?


The original was 23 or 25 sq ft - (I forget exactly) - the new one is now 19sq ft

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:03 pm 
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I wasn't aware that I had been elected to the Board but as a layman:

1. I have never been able to understand why the daggerboard was not added to the rest of the range. Having started out with an Outback and then an Adventure with no daggerboard, then an Outfitter and now an Oasis and AI (Adventure) I feel I can claim, with the benefit of some experience, that it really does transform the sailing experience. I am currently planning to fabricate one for my Oasis out of an old windsurfer daggerboard ($10) and an old MirageDrive shaft - I won't be able to use the drive in that slot but I anticipate that the boat will point much higher as a result.

2. As to the best sail size - it is all about a compromise based upon expected wind strength and, to give them their due, we can't seriously expect Hobie to provide a perfect solution for every location round the world where their kayaks are sailed; they can only provide a reasonable compromise - the rest is up to us as kayak sailors. If the sail cannot be reefed down then a larger sail will become a liability in stronger winds. If you want to reduce sail there is now an out-of-the-box solution for roller-reefing/furling a sail which has become too much due to wind strength - this is a great addition but there is a downside in that sail shape & performance of a reefed sail is affected quite noticeably so sailing with a larger sail that is always reefed is not the best solution. Conversely in lighter winds you can't exactly make the sail any larger so the only solution is to add more canvas aloft (not so easy but doable on a Hobie kayak out at sea - carry 2 sizes and change up and down for conditions). Windsurfers and kite surfers adopt the same approach because of the absence of reefing on their craft - they carry a range of sails/kites of different sizes for different wind strengths and come ashore to change up/down - and they sometimes get caught out when the wind strength increases or decreases while they are out on the water. I have rattled on ad nauseam about adding a jib to a single and/or a second mast to the Oasis so as to be able to set more canvas. Both of these solutions work very well indeed in lighter winds and really add to the sailing experience: I cannot recommend them highly enough if you consistently sail in lighter winds, find that the sailing is pedestrian as a result, and are willing to accept the extra complexity and risk. If you feel that the standard sail is just right but want to get more performance, I suggest you try staying the mast with light spectra line - removing mast bend allows the sail to keep its built-in (sewn-in) foil shape and it performs a whole lot better as a result (the more mast bend you eradicate, the more noticeable the improvement in performance will be).

3. Personally I am not in a rush to add a weighted daggerboard to my boat - my feeling is that to do so increases the strain on both boat and rigging (particularly the mast) and the extra weight then needs more breeze or more canvas for a given level of performance ...which will add even more stress to the system. Personally if I wanted to get more sailing performance I would start by correcting the mast bend with stays and that would allow a jib to be flown as a next step up; or, if my boat was a double, I would set about adding a second mast to make a schooner, though a jib on a double would be no more difficult than on a single.

8)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Hi Everybody,

I too am delighted that they will keep the daggerboard in the Revo 16. I sail a 2013 Adventure, used to sail a 2006 sand coloured Adventure, and find the daggerboard helps enormously in squalls to stop the sudden lean/rotation of the hull in a gust.I also take to drive out to get more speed and refit the hull plug. Yes I know I am being a bit fussy about boat speed but every little helps. The new Revo 16 will be great with the daggerboard and new seating. For the first time in seven years I will be able to have a dry ride.

I also feel the boat could do with a few more feet of sail if the mast tube could take it. The Adventure is annoyingly sluggish sometimes especially in light winds. Having said that I changed the spine on my ancient drive to the newer version with refined profile and I get less slosh in the drive well as it seems more hydrodynamic. Actually the new drive fitting is so much better I hardly notice the difference whether in or out for sailing.

I love my Adventure too as a sailing machine. It is a very pure concept. I sometimes dream of the Island as I could go further faster and in a more secure fashion (talking crossing expanses of open sea) but when I sit on the beach with a beer and look at the simple craft that brought me there I am kind of satisfied. Talking of the beach that new seat will also be great for use out of the boat and when camping.

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Last edited by JOHNNY B on Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:47 pm 
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I agree JB ...the simplicity of sailing the Adventure is hard to beat. 8)
I have one concern about the new seat and that is how comfortable it will be hiking out. I could be wrong but I imagine that the rear support will dig in to your back.
I prefer a full back wrap around seat that conforms to your back and acts like a harness for hiking out. This Sea to Summit seat is my favourite seat for kayak sailing. I find it much more comfortable than the Hobie original seat when hiking out.
Image
Image
I really hope I'm wrong on this as the new seat will be better in lots of other ways.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:39 pm 
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stringy wrote:
fusioneng wrote:
Stringy:
The revo 13 is also my favorite sailing kayak ( though I sold my last revo last year (budget cuts lol)) and only have my TI anymore). The reason I say that is I felt the standard Hobie kayak sail (~20 sq ft) seems to be size matched for the revo perfectly. However when using the same sail on our oasis I always wanted for more sail, as I couldn't even begin to keep up with my wife in her revo when we were together. Though I have never kayak sailed an adventure kayak with the standard Hobie kayak sail, my impression has always been that the results would be similar to sailing an oasis with the boat being a little large for the standard hobie kayak sail.
The reason I am bringing this up is you guys successfully lobbied with Hobie to keep the dagger board on the revo 16. But I have not heard a peep from any of you formally requesting for a larger 27sq ft kayak sail that would work well on the oasis,revo16, and the pa line of boats (especially the PA 14 and 17), where the Hobie standard kayak sail is too small for those boats.
Alternately they could come out with a furl able wing version of the Hobie kayak sail (like my designs) that could easily propel their larger kayaks. (A 22sq ft wing sail would be equal to a 30 sq ft conventional sail but with much less heeling), I'm just sayin.
Just a suggestion, if nobody asks for it Hobie will be oblivious to the problem.
Maybe you and Stobbo can bring this up at the next Hobie board meeting (lol)
Bob

:lol: :lol: :lol: "Hobie Board Meeting" ......I wish!

Some good points there Bob.
You are right about the underperforming small sail on the larger kayaks but I think you are missing the point that the Adventure being longer, narrower and faster than the Revo13 is a great performer with the small sail.
I'd love to see Hobie add a larger sail to their range but Matt's point about the mast tube is also valid.
In higher winds the unstayed mast wobbles all over the place.
The ability to furl it is the key.
A lot, of course, depends on your local wind conditions. You have posted about your light winds and I know in those conditions I wouldn't even bother sailing. Fortunately here we generally have more favourable winds and I'd say I probably sail more with a furled sail than not. That's why I haven't really done anything about a larger sail.
Though if Hobie were to release an XL sail I wouldn't hesitate to get it! :wink:


G'day Stringy hope you and my Old Mates are well.

Read this thread and agree with you about furling larger sails if the wind gets stronger, what, nobody told them that?
STAR Sails keep their aerodynamic even when furled 50%, and have Boom option.
Also, about the Step-load, Bill's alternative STAR SAILS are cut so less area at the top and made with a bendy mast deliberately to spill the air before it loads the Step.
If you look at the set of his Hang-glider sails you can see he knows what he is doing, the Furling gear does not look as Gucci as the Hobie one but works fine.

In my situation sailing calm estuaries in light winds a 3 SqMtr (32SqFt) is more suitable for my Revo and a must for my 2008 AI used without the ama.
I totally understand that Hobie chose that 20SqFt stock sail to be a good all-rounder but if I can tailor my boat for my conditions all the better.
Last question: Has anyone sailed an Adventure Upwind using the small Hobie sail and Sidekicks?
(It might be better for me to get a Revo 16 with Skeg and Star sail instead of a Revo 13 which is great but cannot sail upwind without pedalling. Some Revo owners might think they are sailing upwind but the boat is going downwind sideways as much as it is forward.)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:55 pm 
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G'day Max. Good to hear from you again. All's well here. Hopefully the same with you?
That's interesting info on the Star sail. I almost bought one and found Bill very helpful. In the end I decided against it for now. Most of the time the winds here have been strong enough that I've had to furl the Hobie sail, so a bigger sail would get little use.
I've never sailed the Revo13 so I can't comment on it but I know that the Adventure is very stable with the Daggerboard down. I use it on all points of sail. It's so stable that even though I have the Sidekicks (left over from our old Oasis days) I've never bothered to fit them to the Adventure.
The Daggerboard is the key to the Adventure's sailing success. You could always add one to the Revo13's drivewell.

PS- thanks for the comments on my Adventure sailing YouTube clip. That was a very early clip taken soon after I got my GoPro. I must get around to updating it as my sailing has improved a lot since then.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:22 am 
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skymax wrote:
It might be better for me to get a Revo 16 with Skeg and Star sail instead of a Revo 13 which is great but cannot sail upwind without pedalling. Some Revo owners might think they are sailing upwind but the boat is going downwind sideways as much as it is forward.)


Participating in this Forum makes me realise how little I know but is it right to assert that a Revo 13 cannot sail upwind without peddling?

The fact that given a constant wind direction, you can sail a mirage kayak downwind then tack back to your starting point without peddling is simple, irrefutable proof that mirage kayaks can sail upwind. Upwind performance (without peddling) was the very first thing I tested when I sailed my Sport. And there is no reason to believe that the Revo 13 would perform any worse upwind than a Sport. Indeed, I had formed the impression from reading others' opinions elsewhere in this Forum that the Revolutions were the best sailers of the mirage kayaks.

My understanding why a centreboard/daggerboard/leeboard is not necessary to enable a sailing kayak to make distance to wind is because kayaks hulls are designed to track in a straight line which means there is resistance to lateral slippage under the pressure of sail.

I can believe that a daggerboard increases windward performance (points higher?). But I would love to see a side-by-side comparison of Adventure kayaks with and without daggerboards to see the size of the benefit. Am more swayed by empirical evidence than assertion.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:08 pm 
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Yeah, when I owned my Revo 13 I used to think it would sail upwind too, I know better now.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:21 am 
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Lead Belly wrote:
The fact that given a constant wind direction, you can sail a mirage kayak downwind then tack back to your starting point without peddling is simple, irrefutable proof that mirage kayaks can sail upwind.

My i12s can just zoom upwind along a canal. I mean make progress, not just slip and slide in a deceptive angle. The wind has to be straight parallel to canal, or else it gets too turbulent from bldgs along the side.

I wondered why Hobie recommended to pedal too, when it gives no better angle to the wind. Their inflato mast (with shrouds and not bendy) and sail has a defined 3D belly which collapses at the same tack angle with or without pedaling. But y'all seem to be saying the pedaling reduces slippage at a given angle... I will have to check that.

The inflato may benefit from it's straight lines which remind me of flat side of asym catamaran hulls. Quite minimal rounded lines just at each bitter end, and I used to sail with the turbo fins quite tight. Hmm, those lines may account for worse yawing in sizable waves.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Using the Retrospectoscope I should have said its difficult to sail my Revo 13 upwind in my local conditions.
If you have a breeze that is optimal in strength and still water it can progress without Pedalling but works so much better with a gentle cadence.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:59 pm 
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I used to be able to sail my Outback upwind - also my first Adventure (before I got the daggerboard) - so I think it reasonable to assume that you will be able to sail pretty much all the Hobie kayaks up wind...

BUT...

my daggerboard-less boats would certainly not go upwind by very much, and I suspect that this is also true for all the Hobie kayak fleet.

I sail in quite tidal waters and I have a particular location nearby where the tide rushes through like a (slowish) river, where the water is flat and the wind is accelerated by the local topography which makes a very good testing ground for upwind sailing performance. I used to go there a lot to challenge myself to sail upwind against an incoming tide or just to enjoy sailing in flat water with a constant breeze when the conditions further out were not as ideal.

What I found was that the Adventure with the daggerboard down and the mirage-drive plug in was (is) far and away the best sailor of the kayaks I have owned (Outback Adventure Outfitter Oasis). In comparison with the other kayaks, it would point much higher and sail much faster (both important considerations for making ground upwind) than the others.

Of the non-daggerboard kayaks the Adventure was still best (with the fins down in place of the daggerboard) - again sailing speed was a factor - but also the long waterline which provides considerably more lateral resistance than my other boats. I hear that the Revo is almost as fast as the Adventure so that would help it in an upwind sailing competition ( :idea: ) against the Adventure - but I would bet that the Adventure would still win out in these circumstances because of the extra half a knot of boat speed and its longer waterline/greater lateral resistance.

In 'normal' yachting many people will motor sail upwind (equivalent to us pedaling and sailing). They do this to be able to point higher while maintaining boat-speed (it is sometimes referred to as 'using the iron topsail' - a term which derives from the additional performance provided by normal topsails in the days of gaff rig... but that's another passion and another story :) ). As you sail closer and closer to the wind your forward drive becomes less and less - to the point that you can no longer maintain boat-speed because the sailing is passing more 'over' the sail than 'into' the sail and the sail is pulled so tight in to the boat that it has very little ability to provide forward (as opposed to lateral) drive. It is all down to conditions and the design of your boat and sails.

So motor sailing is an 'approved' technique to allow you to maintain forward speed and sail closer to the wind (i.e. point higher up wind) than you would otherwise be able to do - in other words it allows you to overcome, the inability of your boat to sail (without assistance) closer to the wind than conditions and the design of your boat and sails would otherwise permit - and I can't see anything wrong with using the same technique on the Hobies when circumstances suggest it - but personally I prefer the challenge of sailing, pure and simple, and I put the sail away and pedal when the conditions are not right for that.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:03 am 
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Amen to that, but being as weak as cat these days if trying to point high in the Revo for a longish time I may forgo pedalling and instead Release The Kraken, err, I mean Deploy the Torqeedo Drive.

Early sail/steamers used both systems simultaneously to achieve speeds neither could individually so it should work for us.

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