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 Post subject: Re: upwind performance?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2837
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Obviously I don't think like anyone else, and am about as far from a sailing purist as you can possibly be (man vs sea and all that rot). Like I have said before I used to have a Sunfish and absolutely hated it, all you could do was zig zag in front of the docks a mile or two from launch, only in certain conditions and that's it (gets old quickly). Who gives a care if my personal ability sailing the exact same boat as everyone elses (a 60 yr old design) is better than someone else's to sail around little bouys.
I have still yet to see anyone fishing from a sunfish or laser, or seen any similar type boats parked on the many sand bars just hanging out in this area for the day (the thing to do around here and the keys to get out of the crazy hot sun). However people do use their Hobiecats ( I'm a little jelous there).

I much prefer to use my mind and new technology to cheat by any means possible to achieve getting from point A to point B as quickly as possible with as little physical effort as possible and that's it. I am no athlete and never will be, but on the other hand I am not the type to scream around on a jetski, or a 75mph gofast boat, (though I am a motorhead and former powerboat racer/builder (hydroplanes), but that was many yrs ago). We used to have a Sea Ray Powerboat and it almost broke us keeping it up (powerboats are huge moneypits in Florida).

The point I'm trying to make is forget about pure sailing the old fashion way (2000 yrs old tech), the way monohulls, lasers, and sunfish do it, erase that old obsolete stuff from your mind. What you have is much more powerful than any of that stuff, it all comes right out of the box from Hobie with any of their mirage kayaks when applied properly with the key point being 'not to try to assimilate or emulate all the old crap out there that hasn't changed much in the last 2000 yrs'.

Here is a video of my TI sailing in 8mph winds sailing almost directly upwind around 15 degrees off the wind at faster than windspeed, then later on (around 6.5 minutes in) sailing downwind faster than the wind speed, all exploiting what we call apparent wind. ( Any Hobie Mirage kayak can do this)
Watch the video then come back, let me explain how to do it with any mirage kayak (which mirage kayak model just doesn't matter, all have this capability designed in right from the factory).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ9Y7gBo8-Y


I understand this is a little hard to grasp, and goes against the grain of what everyone assumes and understands. This discrete video published in Feb 2010 by giz magazine is where it all began. Most boring video ever created but it hints at all the possibilities, get some popcorn and open your mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=241QmxFcbuc



By combining all three power sources and exploiting all at the same time (which they don't even mention), true Tri-brid propulsion is not only possible but is now a reality.
The TI is a very large boat, and I am no athlete by any means, so a small amount of supplimental propulsion is required via either hybrid outboards or electric/solar (just doesn't matter which you use).

With two fit peddlers the supplimental propulsion can be eliminated completely, the downside is we as humans run out of energy in a mile or so (thus the need for supplimental propulsion at this time).
Obviously I'm into human power, and always pedal my Mirage boats 100% of the time at a sustainable pace ( up to ten hrs at a time).
A perfect example of this (if anyone wants to try it), would be to take a revo 13 or revo 16 (only as examples, actually all Hobie Mirage kayaks should be able to do this). Add either a rudder mounted Evolve, or a trolling motor of your choice. Point your kayak directly into the wind, pull the Hobie kayak sail tight and start peddling, and apply a little supplimental propulsion. Once your speed is up to around 4 mph turn off the wind slightly. Your sail should fill in and start utilizing the apparent wind created by your forward motion combined with whatever natural wind is available to provide additional propulsion (in effect doubling the wind over your sail). By doing so you can easily sail 20-25 degrees off the wind at a pretty good speed giving you the best VMG possible. You should be able to sail a revo using this method at 5-6 mph upwind. Obviously if you eliminate the supplimental propulsion aspect, then you have to pedal way harder to get the same effect ( I don't want to do that, just sayin).
This is an artificial sailing stance, meaning if you stop peddling the boat will just point into the wind and stall (that's exactly what all mine do). However by careful control of your rudder, and not allowing the boat to point too far off the wind with full sail out (capsize results), you can point up wind on a Hobie sailing kayak into some pretty significant winds. Since the boat is pointing almost into the wind, the heeling moment on the boat is minimal (thats the force trying it's best to tip you over), and also if their are gusts, you have time to react and adjust without having to go swimming.
Same exact concepts also work on downwind (as shown at 6.5 minutes into the video). By applying supplimental propulsion and peddling you can actually tack down wind the same as you tack upwind by exploiting the apparent wind you generated by your forward motion, then re-directing the natural wind to power your sail. At this point you are actually sailing faster than the wind itself. Obviously you can't point downwind as close as you can upwind, but you can pretty safely go downwind 35-45 degrees off the wind with enough forward motion to be able to re-direct some of the wind around your sail (as long as you are sailing faster than the natural wind, or somewhere reasonably close). Your sail in this circumstance will not be the ever familiar taco shape we all recognize when trying to sail downwind (which is pretty useless BTW). Your sail configuration will more resemble a close reach or beam reach sailing (just be careful when jibing, that can become tricky as seen 6.5 minutes into the video).

An added benefit to sailing this way is all the power calculation associated with the Evolve and other electric configurations assume your motor is providing 100% of your propulsion needs. When pedal sailing with supplimental propulsion (tribrid sailing), your evolve/electrics/solar only needs to provide 1/3 of your propulsion needs (tripling your battery range (in theory anyway, pretty dependent on how hard you really want to peddle, and how long you can sustain a certain peddling pace, I for one am not up for that), I prefer brains over brawn ( lol).

Anyone who wants to try all this stuff out can try it all prior to adding any supplimental propulsion device (Evolve, etc) just by peddling harder than normal (pedal power would be 2/3 of your propulsion needs, sail power 1/3), however if your like me I can only sustain that pace for a mile or so then I'm out of gas (thus the need for supplimental propulsion).

On our TI with 2 strong peddlers we can maintain everything you see in the video (and the 30-40 other videos I have posted) without needing the Hybrid engines at all, but we get pretty winded in a couple miles. Everything described can also be done on a regular Hobie mirage kayak as well. We never bothered with outriggers kayak sailing (outriggers are training wheels for kayak sailing IMO ( lol)).

Of course if you get winded, you can always resort back to the old fashion way of sailing, none of those capabilities are ever compromised. In my opinion on a Hobie Mirage kayak I would much prefer a Torqeedo 403 on a rear ball mount over Hobies Evolve, this way you don't lose your mirage drive capabilities, or experience the extra drag created by the evolve mounted to the rudder. (basically they are both the exact same unit (manufactured by Torqeedo)), and pretty close to the same price). The Torqeedo 403 can also be adapted for use on any kayak (not just Hobies)

I've been sailing Hobie kayaks (all different models) for about ten yrs now using these techniques. To the best of my knowledge there is no other boat on the planet that can do what these Mirage kayaks can do (bar none).
Try it you'll like it... Any existing Hobie Kayak sailer with a sail kit can try all this methodology out without spending a dime (the capabilities are designed into the boat), well for short distances anyway (lol).
Hope this helps
FE

Sorry for the long rambling response.


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 Post subject: Re: upwind performance?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:36 am 
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Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:57 am
Posts: 48
Location: Newport Beach, California
This helps:

Image

Image

Image

Old Hobie 16 rudder.

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Wil Thoms
Newport Beach

Hobie 16 with Tequila Sunrise sails (in the past)
Hobie Revo 11 for peddle, paddle, fishing and sailing
Hobie Eclipse 10.5 Solar Yellow


Last edited by wthoms2000 on Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: upwind performance?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 462
This approach http://www.sailwings.net/rotaryhome.html can sail straight into the wind, as seen in https://vimeo.com/85944832


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 Post subject: Re: upwind performance?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:47 am 
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Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2837
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Daft:
I've seen videos of this many yrs ago, all these guys have it all wrong, they are trying to use a single means of propulsion (natural wind) to propel their boat. As you can see the guy is just crawling along at maybe 1-2mph (whats the point nobody wants to go that slow. The guy is sitting on the boat doing nothing, if he had a mirage drive (or two) that produces some forward motion (3-5 mph) by moderate peddling, that added to whatever natural wind is coming at the boat would make the apparent wind driving his windmill 10 mph (assuming 5mph wind and peddling at 5mph). Now his underwater prop optimally pitched with a power range to propel the boat from zero to 5mph, the energy is wasted. If he pitches his prop so the optimum power range were lets say 5-10 mph, then the prop can add propulsion. Of course if the boat were sitting still it would take more force than available to turn the underwater propeller (thats all assumed).

Now what if there was some way to improve, accelerate, and focus the air blowing onto the windmill. This can be easily done with a wing. Basically what the wing does is it takes any wind passing over it (in this case 5mph from your forward peddling motion, plus the 5mph natural wind coming at you. That natural wind can be coming from any direction in front of you from about 5-10 degrees up to around 70 degrees, then aligns, redirects, and accelerates that wind straight back into the windmill, in essence making the windmill work harder, where without the wing or your forward motion it would be doing nothing.
All this stuff added together is called tri-bred propulsion.

By combining multiple sources of propulsion with each source only having to provide a small percentage of your overall propulsion needs you can do amazing things.
Using the guys windmill boat in the video as an example. Lets say he adds a mirage drive into the mix and he is very athletic, and he can pedal that little cat 8mph for a mile or so until his legs turn to rubber (just the boat, pretend the windmill is removed or feathered, and there is no wind or current). Even if he had a big TI most of us can pedal up to those speeds for short distances). When going 8 mph if you add that to whatever natural wind you are sailng into, the wind blowing onto your face lets say 8 plus 8 mph equals 16 mph wind blowing into your face. Now lets organize and amplify that wind (with a wing) so the focused wind blowing at the windmill is 18-20 mph. That wimpy little windmill is now generating some serious horsepower, and is sufficient to drive an over pitched propeller. Of course if you stop peddling everything comes to a screaching halt (because the force to drive the underwater prop exceeds the hp output of the windmill.
Even my boat cannot sail directly into the wind, in order to force my wing into it's assymetric form I have to direct the wind more from one side or the other, typically ten degrees will do it (less in higher winds).
When there is zero natural wind (almost never) I have to tack on curved paths in order to maky my wing flip to it's assymetric shape (creating lift). However the amount of additional propulsion and wind amplification the wing provides is miniscule at that point (I basically have to have some natural wind (doesn't need to be a lot)).
It's all very interesting stuff, but has very little to do with actual sailing which is a different world alltogether. Yea my boat has sails, but I don't use them for that purpose. Of course I can always revert back to old fashion sailing at any time, but when in that mode all the old rules still apply, (ie... Can't point much closer than 45-50 degrees off the wind, and the boat typically performs around .6 of windspeed (no different from any other sailboat).
Sorry about the long dribble it just frustrates me to no end that people are so stuck on ancient tech (lol).
FE


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 Post subject: Re: upwind performance?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:23 pm 
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Posts: 462
FE: That old propeller video is supplanted by his many newer ones, such as with RC model trimaran which zooms like a maniac on any point of sail. He acknowledges praise from a closed youtube account "HobieCat" which may have been Hobie Alter himself. His focus now seems to be limited to solving the academic problem like "direct upwind" with models and making patents, leaving realworld application to folks like us. You might want to click on his "wingsail" page link near the bottom which unlike conventional wingsails is completely self steering.

OK, the propeller approach may be impractical for improving upwind. You pose alternatives of brute human or infernal combustion engine assistance to point higher, which can work but probably is far from the intent of the OP or most of the readers. It makes sense if you hate A and love B, and don't agree it's the journey rather than the destination that counts.

You say the journey is hot, but the sun is more equatorial here and I find total WET coverup refreshing. Just soak your clothes along the way... I am now covering the last 3 sq inches of exposed skin and it's wonderful basking in a sunburn-free sun. Wet cooling clothes give a sense of exact wind direction too. You feel drawn to distant attractions, and I certainly could go for another Egmont Key visit but scuba excursions don't seem a likely goal in this "kayak sailing" topic area... a occasional snorkle may suffice for most.

To me, sailing is not about competitive zig-zagging or inflicting pain on fish but about savoring the coastline, waves, and wind. The bliss starts when motor or footpedals stop and you become a magic hoovercraft borne by the wind. Same thing with aircraft... the typical airline pilot recreates with a sailplane. I downsized my flying life from motorized at age 15 to just gliding over dunes and meadows. About the same age I motorboated over a sunken wooden sailboat, towed it home, restored it and never boated with a motor again.

If you can stand motors, how about installing a rotating cylinder sail rig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship ? I'm not coming from a purist or green extreme, and can accept some may want emergency motors. Germany is selling an integrated battery + water jet which fits modularly into the stern of paddleboard or larger craft, but is super expensive. From a visceral level some of us hate engines... recently I hand carried miles home an embarrassing 45 roll econopack of toilet paper past lines of folks waiting to enter restaurants - leg and arm exercise, and no forgettable banal car errand!

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