Return to Hobie.com

Hobie Forums

It is currently Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:45 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:02 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:51 am
Posts: 3
I would like to be able to launch my i9s safely with the mast and sail already mounted on the hull by means of the shrouds but somehow without the sail being deployed to the point that it luffs wildly or even catches in the wind and starts trying to sail when I don't want it to. With the shrouds supporting the mast to hold it in place, furling the sail around the mast is not an option as it would be on the Hobie rigid-hulled kayaks. What I'm looking for is a way to keep the sail basically folded close to the mast until I am launched, away from beach/shallows/dock, & out on the water and ready to sail, when from my seat in my i9s, I would somehow be able to let the sail out from being folded close to the mast so that it would start catching the wind in a controlled way for actual sailing. When sailing is done and time has come to return to shore, I would like somehow to be able to reverse this process from my seat so that the sail could be brought in close to the mast without it luffing wildly or still catching the wind and trying to sail. I'm hoping that at least one of you experienced Hobie inflatable kayak owners with an i-Sail Kit already has this figured out, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks

Kent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:01 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 422
Some possibly bad options:

- Fusioneng posted a proposal on using roller reefing by extending the shrouds to a plate at the top of the mast. At the bottom and top of mast you would need something that allowed mast rotation. And a line wrapped to allow turning the mast. Not sure if he intended to replace the entire isail kit in favor of regular sailkit.

- I used to be able to loosely S fold the sail to nestle between the shrouds when coming in with a following wind. It took a real knack of letting the mainsheet out just so, which I seem to have lost or else the sail stiffness has changed. No good for squall preparation.

- You could S fold it to begin with and secure with a few slipknots which pull out in a series with one line when on the water. Again useless for squall protection, which is the only issue to me.

- You could install a boom / boombatten. Then it could be angled up and tied with slipknots for unfurling. You might even have a line that can hoist the boom end angled up to crudely furl.

- Use lazyjacks turned sideways, with or without the boom. They would have to be detensioned while sailing. you may need extra lines wrapped around mast to retract the sail to take the place of gravity. I show a picture at bottom shows the principle of conventional lazyjacks, but use considerable creativity to apply that principle rotated 90 degrees.

- I don't see the problem of simply launching and landing with full sail up. If your launch is tricky, just pedal with the sail down to an easier place. Start and end in thigh deep in water with the sailboat aimed into the wind. If needed you can pedal straight into the wind with the sail sheeted in tight. It is amazing, but the sail often pulls then or at least drags little.

- If you can get out of your seat, you might have the sailkit fully rigged except for one side shroud. The base of the mast can store off to one side of the stern. Some kind of line to keep the sail S folded. Then you can put the mast up and click in the side shroud when needed, then reverse the process.

Image

_________________
My Hobie i12s... sailboat in a suitcase!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:15 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 422
Hmm, I thought of a much simpler approach than above for squall endurance... replace the mainsheet with one about 8 feet longer! Then the sail may be able to wrap even a bit forward. I have another boat with no shrouds and it is so liberating to let the boom rotate forward or whatever to depower the thing. Yes, the Hobie upper batten will press a bit on the side shroud, as will the lower sail, and the rest will flap like crazy. Just might mean I have to put more slack on the side shrouds:

Image

When I do that, I will be able to route the longer mainsheet from the stern D ring to a pulley well forward of the seat on the right side. Then I grip it with more comfort pulling back, and puddle the extra line under my thighs.

Another less simple approach is sort of a poor mans lazyjack. Run 2 light lines from the sail clew to forward of the mast and back on the other side to the clew. Note if you pull the ends of one on each side that it will scrunch the sail up against the mast. Tie it down, then release to unfurl. Would be nice to have to have velcro or something at the ends. May want to have a ring in front of the mast which can lift the lazy lines to an optimum position.

_________________
My Hobie i12s... sailboat in a suitcase!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:42 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2637
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
It's super simple to make a mast topper and furler kit for a hobie kayak, including the inflatable (makes no difference which boat , inflatable or rigid).
What I used was a hardened 3/8 to 1/4 socket adapter. The 1/4" part needs to be at least 1" long. I then pounded the extension into the top of the mast. I then burned a hole in the strap at the top of the sail with a solder iron. I then took a piece of 7/8 dia alum tubing around 2.5 ft long with a 1/4 hole drilled about 5" from one end.
On the inflatable you would attach the back stay at the back of of the rod, the two front/side stays would attach to the front of the rod.
For the furler you just get some 1.5"dia pvc and two end caps. It costs about $5 bucks and 30 minutes of your time to make the Furler.
On ours we had quick snap clips so we could quickly snap the stays on.
We alway launched with the sail furled and strapped to the side of the kayak, actually we have never launched a hobie without a sail kit strapped to the side of the kayak (not even once).
All your rigging and pulleys remains on the boat always.
On the inflatable the rod at the top can likely be much shorter., we had ours configured for hard kayaks with jibs and spinnakers.
Hope this helps
FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:12 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 422
Another approach would be to retrofit shower curtain rod technology! The details would have to be worked out, but I got one of those homemade sailkits meant for a SUP, and it had the sail entirely attached to the (telescopic) mast and boom by rings like what hold a shower curtain on. There must be a dozen easy ways to kill the sail because everything slides and accommodates easily, whether you de-telescope a spar or just crunch up a portion of sail with your hand. We talked about using this sailkit for i11s in the inflatable section.

Don't sneer at this technology; these hoops on a spar was what won (stalemated?) the war of 1812, and at a cost of a bit of aerodynamics the hoops slide easily vs conventional slots in a mast or sail sleeves. For the SUP sail it is horizontally tensioned by one hoop at boom end vs the hoops on the mast, so that one hoop can be quick-released or the boom can be de-telescoped to accordion up the sail.

Better yet the vertical tension is just the single hoop at mast top vs the weight of the boom and sail. You can de-telescope the mast or push up the boom or lower the top hoop with a pulley or simple lazyjack. Various challenges in the details, and I have concerns about how the seller configured the base of the mast which may favor rigid hulls. but ripe possibilities for a creative person. It would be interesting how such a boomed low aspect sail works on a yak.

_________________
My Hobie i12s... sailboat in a suitcase!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:26 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2637
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I'm still standing behind the PVC furler concept as the easiest and cheapest option, shouldn't take more than an hour to make with just an electric drill as the only tool needed. Shouldn't cost much more than ten bucks, (maybe $20 if you have to buy a whole socket set in order the socket extension piece you need.
Basically you will be cutting off and removing the existing stay lines and replacing them with something else (a different design) at the top, (just sayin the original design kinda sucks)
The key component here is the spin bearing at the top of the mast. There are a dozen simple ways to achieve this, I will list a couple so you can select from the menu and select which will work for you, and what is easily available at your local hardware store.
All options involve modifying the top of the aluminum mast itself just one time.
I'm not sure if Hobie uses the exact same aluminum mast as is used on the regular Hobie kayaks, (I am assuming it's the exact same part).
Our favorite pastime is Hobie kayak sailing and pretty much every one of the half dozen Hobie kayaks we have bought we purchased the sail kit along with the boat, all hard kayaks, we don't own a Hobie inflatable, (our two inflatables are a different brand and used for a different purpose (ie.. not kayak sailing), basically we tow extra people out to snorkeling areas with our TI mothership. We keep the inflatable in the back of the truck along with our 4 person inflatable just in case we need them, (BTW, you can't haul gear, ie... scuba tanks, big cooler, etc in an inflatable kayak, they just flip in the ocean. In ten years of kayaking (year round down here) we have never launched a Hard Hobie kayak without a sail kit strapped to the side of the kayak, not even once, just in case we find favorable wind. I installed a furler system on every one of them before ever taking any out on the water.

Before doing any thing pull the mast and look at it. If it's like all mine were you will find a plastic plug shoved into the top of the mast. Remove the plug. Just below the plug you will see a bungy stretched over a cross pin. The cross pin needs to be pounded out and removed, along with the bungy, (on all mine I just stretched the bungy up and snipped the bungy, leaving all the remnents inside the mast.
Now carefully measure the ID of the tubing at the top, that's the diameter you have to work with, ( I don't recall the exact diameter but I think it was around 3/8 dia ID, you need to measure yourself.

Option 1: On my first sail, I happened to have a 1/4" socket extention in my tool box, the 1/4" dia part was about an inch long, the large diameter part was just the right size so I pounded into the top of the mast and I was done, (the extention is hardened steel so it is very strong and doesn't rust easily).

Option 2: after the first one, when I went to the second sail (my wifes boat), I had already used my socket extension and didn't have another so I went to Home Depot and bought a 1/4" id x 3/8"od 3/4" long brass bushing and simply epoxied the bushing into the top of the mast. If I recall correctly I had to chase a 3/8" dia drill into the end of the pipe so the bushing would drop in easily, (this was all ten yrs ago so my memory is fuzzy). If the tubing ID is already larger than 3/8", then just let the epoxy fill in the gap, (doesn't need to be pefectly straight and on center, close is enough.

Now all you need is a 1/4" diameter hard round pin to drop in the hole, I used 1/4" dia drill blanks on some, 1/4" dia carbide blanks on others, all depending on what I had laying around the garage, (I'm a retired engineer/tool maker so I got all that crap just laying around the garage).

Now for the topper itself we just used 7/8" dia aluminum left over from old bent masts, about two feet long (lol we had plenty of them layin around, the cost of trying to run giant spinnakers and jibs kayak sailing, yea your goin to bend a mast once in a while, (just saying).
This style mast topper worked ok with Hobie rigid kayaks with just a 1/4" cross hole drilled about 5" back from one end, with the hard pin jammed and epoxied into the hole on later versions, On the first one I just used the hole.

On the inflatable you will need something at the top to tie your stay lines, one front line and two side stays to. Each hole needs to be around 3-4" off center so all the lines clear the sail when furling, this will of corse decrease the angles of your stay lines slightly, but no enough to hurt anything. I use a lot of that polyethylene cutting board material, (available at walmart for about $5 bucks, I would get one at least 5/16 thick or thicker. Now with a saber saw or hack saw cut a triangle out of the board, (doesn't need to be fancy or neat). Before cutting drill four 1/4" dia holes, one in the center and one near edge/ corner of the triangle, not too close to any corner. Your stay lines will be tied to the outer 1/4" holes and the 1/4" pin will be jammed/glued in the center hole so it doesn't fall out. The nice thing about polyethylene is it floats so if you drop it accidentally it won't sink to the bottom like aluminum would, plus way cheaper.
Your new stay system is now done and can be used even without a furler right away. A perfect triangle will work as described above (with the 1/4" dia hole in the center), since you already have the rest of that giant cutting board just layin around, you might want to make up a second top plate with the front stay hole a little closer to the rotation point, (about 2"), then the two side stays in line or slightly forward of the rotation point side to side, then further out from the rotation point (maybe 6" inches, maybe try 8-9" out as well, (8"-9" from center will likely not work, but would be worth trying if you have the cutting board material anyway). This way your side stays don't interfere with your sail when in downwind, (just a suggestion).
Now just find some light line similar to what Hobies uses, (our local Hobie dealer stocks that line, as I'm sure most boating places do, (aka West marine, etc).

One additional pointer, I always have my sail kit along when kayaking, furled and stored on the side of the boat, (where your double ended paddle stores on the hard kayas). If I want to put it up while on the water I always leave the front stay clipped to the boat, this serves two purposes, first being if you drop that top plate in the water you can retrieve it with your paddle, (remember it floats). Second reason is what the heck do you do with that stupid plate when not sailing,,, I just stuff mine under the bungy on the front hatch. If I find usable wind I grab the furled sail, clip on the clue line, grab the mast topper slip it on, (with the front stay line attached, (btw that front stay doesn't need to be super tight, (so you can still get the mast in the hole obviously). Once up you clip in the side stays sitting next to you, if you want them a little taught so the mast is raked back just a little, it helps performance a little, however you still need to be able to furl/unfurl the sail easily so you can't bend back too far. Make sure your rear stay lines are untangled and dangling all the way down before raising the sail, otherwise you can't reach them once you put the sail up.
After trying it all out and it works to your liking, then it's on to the simple PVC furler, I'm sure if you look thru the Hobie archive, (or search youtube) you will find at least a dozen instructional videos on how to make them, their super simple to make in less than an hr, with no special tools, and cost about $5 bucks in materials.
Hope this helps
FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:25 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 422
Inflatos would also have to construct a spin bearing for the bottom of the mast, and reroute the fixed downhaul bungy. Maybe implications to our 4 part mast (rigid=2?); not sure can work w/o inner bungy and whether spin force will transfer thru all 4 sections. Somebody please try this and report. I'd be careful about overstressing gluepads.

Meanwhile I am starting small with simply an unlocked carabiner at end of mainsheet. Normally hooked ahead of me, my poor man's furling is to let sheet out by rehooking it well behind me and let the sail flap.

_________________
My Hobie i12s... sailboat in a suitcase!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:52 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 669
Location: Auckland NZ
In the days of heavy cotton sails, oakum and hemp they used a technique of "scandalizing" the sail - you could do a similar thing (the old ways usually work best).

Basically scandalizing involved hauling the clew of the sail (where you tie the sheet to) up towards the top of the mast so that the sail really didn't have any shape left for sailing. You could rig a simple system for scandalizing via a couple of microblocks attached near the top of the shrouds and one near the base of the mast. A couple of lengths of really thin line from your hand to the bottom of the mast, up to the blocks at the shrouds and from there down to the clew (in fact it is probably better to use one piece of line of twice the required length that goes from your hand to the base of the mast, up one side of the mast, through the turning block, down to the clew, through the cringle, up to the other shroud turning block, back down to the base of the mast and back to the helmsman's hand).

To scandalize, release the sheet (and yes, this does need to be long enough to be able to depower the sail on all points of sailing and still be within reach), haul on the doubled line, the clew will rise to the turning blocks and should completely depower the rig. To sail release the doubled line and sheet in. Like the sheet the scandalizing line needs to be long enough - in this case so that it doesn't cut into the belly of the sail on any points of sail but with the end remaining to hand so that the sail can be scandalized again..

If you want to try it the cost would be a few little blocks and a long length of fine line - you could easily test the principle on dry land with far less outlay than that (string and loops of string instead of blocks). If you decided to put a "proper" solution into action I would strongly recommend not cutting or drilling anything: the loads on our boats are so tiny that most rigging blocks etc can be tied on to something close enough to where they need to be with small amounts of the lightest paracord so that your pride and joy remains in an unmodified state just in case you want to resell it in the future.

My $0.02 FWIW hope it helps & do let us all know how you get on.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:23 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:39 am
Posts: 23
So I was the same way, no way was I taking it out without a way to depower the sail. I settled on a pulley system for the forestay. I rig the boat on shore, then let the forestay line out until I can lay the sail on the starboard side of the boat and secure it with some bungees. When I get out into the lake, I undo the bungees, plant the sail like I'm claiming the kayak for Spain with my right hand, and pull the pulley line with my left hand. Once it is up I attach the downhaul bungee.

It worked very well, but the sailing sucked because I had something wrong with the mainsheet. Is it supposed to be on a traveller line? If not, do you have to undo the pulley and move it every tack? EDIT: Never mind, I was making it much too complicated. I get it now.

Here are some pictures, unfortunately there aren't any in action because I only have 2 hands. Sail down and sail up. Total cost was about $50, mainly because I bought a ratcheting block system at home depot so I had more control. I think having done it a jam cleat or tie cleat would be sufficient.

Let me know if these images don't show, since they are to my google photos:

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:09 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:21 am
Posts: 5
kd5crs, your picture do not show up.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group