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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:07 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:55 pm
Posts: 59
Location: Cedar Key, FL
Thanks.

I found a gently used '14 with sailing rudder and turbo fins for $1200 ... not a screaming deal, but I think I'll take it.

The original pedal drive on the '04 Outback had longer fins than the some of the others. That drive recently fell apart after two refurbs*. Now I'm using a V1 drive from an '03 tandem which is even shorter. Yesterday in moderate chop and 9 knot winds I was yawing so much that it was not challenging/fun ... just irritating.

It won't be a Revo with a dagger board, that that '14 Outback will feel like its on rails in comparison.




* Sidenote ... the copper bushing mod I read about on this forum has held up for years, I highly recommend it on V1 drive.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:55 pm 
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touayang84 wrote:
Why not get an adventure island?

Two completely different rigs. Just taking an AI out unless it's on a trailer is an event. Outback is almost (if I may use a hobieism) a throw-and-go affair.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:24 am 
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Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:
touayang84 wrote:
Why not get an adventure island?

Two completely different rigs. Just taking an AI out unless it's on a trailer is an event. Outback is almost (if I may use a hobieism) a throw-and-go affair.


I picked up the '14 Outback yesterday. Waiting on the tide to take her out for the first time.

I'm partial to the Outback for sailing for a few reasons ...

    * I have limited space on my floating dock ... when mounted on the kayak rack, a Revo 16 would definitely stick out underneath the main dock and I'd worry about damage during a king tide ... the Outfitter is a challenge and it's shorter than the Revo 13;
    * I'm very accustomed to the Outback since I've been sailing one since 2003 ... I know it's not "pure" sailing, but enjoy the near constant need to pedal the Outback in anything other than calm water;
    * I go out in fairly rough weather and the Outback's wide beam is nice since I don't want amas/outriggers which would interfere with forays into the mangrove swamps;
    * My home waters are shallow with a decent amount of tidal variation which makes using a dagger board a non-option most of the time (unless I always stick to the main channels which would be boring).

Obviously the Outback is not very fast but I'm not racing anyone. As quoted above, it is a throw-and-go rig; it takes longer to put on sunscreen and pack the cooler than to launch the boat.

My needs/desires are specific to me ... as always, YMMV.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Location: Orlando!
Pollo de muerte wrote:
Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:
touayang84 wrote:
Why not get an adventure island?

Two completely different rigs. Just taking an AI out unless it's on a trailer is an event. Outback is almost (if I may use a hobieism) a throw-and-go affair.


I picked up the '14 Outback yesterday. Waiting on the tide to take her out for the first time.

I'm partial to the Outback for sailing for a few reasons ...

    * I have limited space on my floating dock ... when mounted on the kayak rack, a Revo 16 would definitely stick out underneath the main dock and I'd worry about damage during a king tide ... the Outfitter is a challenge and it's shorter than the Revo 13;
    * I'm very accustomed to the Outback since I've been sailing one since 2003 ... I know it's not "pure" sailing, but enjoy the near constant need to pedal the Outback in anything other than calm water;
    * I go out in fairly rough weather and the Outback's wide beam is nice since I don't want amas/outriggers which would interfere with forays into the mangrove swamps;
    * My home waters are shallow with a decent amount of tidal variation which makes using a dagger board a non-option most of the time (unless I always stick to the main channels which would be boring).

Obviously the Outback is not very fast but I'm not racing anyone. As quoted above, it is a throw-and-go rig; it takes longer to put on sunscreen and pack the cooler than to launch the boat.

My needs/desires are specific to me ... as always, YMMV.

Cheers!


Exactly. I was defending your choice of outback sailing. I had one that I rigged with a custom furling main and jib with mast shrouds, lol. It wanted to move when the wind picked up, and you better be ready to lean out!

The dirty little secret that Island owners (I'm one) don't like to talk about, is that the AI and TI isn't "pure" sailing either, by a damn sight.

Congrats on your purchase.

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Last edited by Pescatoral Pursuit on Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:

The dirty little secret that Island owners (I'm one) don't like to talk about, is that the AI and TI isn't "pure" sailing either, by a damn sight.


???
Please explain!


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:37 pm 
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stringy wrote:
Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:

The dirty little secret that Island owners (I'm one) don't like to talk about, is that the AI and TI isn't "pure" sailing either, by a damn sight.


???
Please explain!


Islands are more efficient, yet same basic, albeit flatter experience as sailing an outback. I would consider closer to "pure" sailing, as being able to shape a sail to conditions with downhaul, outhaul, boom, jack, jib, one that sails well high to windward and downwind, that and a tiller.

Island sails and controls are rudimentary, and it doesn't sail too well past close reach or broad reach. Its a versatile, fun boat, but a "pure sailer?" I guess it depends how you would define the highly subjective term "pure sailing" but I don't consider it so. By comparison, I would say my humble little Holder 14 is a "pure sailing" vessel.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:
Island sails and controls are rudimentary, and it doesn't sail too well past close reach or broad reach. Its a versatile, fun boat, but a "pure sailer?" I guess it depends how you would define the highly subjective term "pure sailing" but I don't consider it so. By comparison, I would say my humble little Holder 14 is a "pure sailing" vessel.


Thanks for that explanation PP.
I consider ‘pure sailing’ to be sailing without assistance eg miragedrive, outboard etc, and in my experience both AI and TI do that quite well. Sailing without the Miragedrive is like letting off the brake. I can sail close hauled pretty much to 45 deg off the wind OK. To do that though I am hiked out on haka, the Miragedrive is pulled and the drivewell plug inserted. I use a tiller extension and the Harken X-Treme angle fairlead. The TI is a better sailer, though I haven’t tried the AIv2.
With the addition of the spinnaker Hobie have overcome the weakness of sailing downwind with a boom less main.
I love the simplicity of the Island sail controls and I prefer to say ‘less complex’ rather than ‘rudimentary’.
So to me the Islands make great ‘pure sailers’ with just a few simple changes mentioned above.

BTW you can successfully pure sail even the kayaks. The Revo 16 is best with it daggerboard slot but we used to pure sail our Oasis with a drivewell plug modded to take the daggerboard. Great fun but not as comfortable sailing as with the Islands!


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:18 pm 
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stringy wrote:
I love the simplicity of the Island sail controls and I prefer to say ‘less complex’ rather than ‘rudimentary’.


That's classic! I hear what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree, though pointing and making good way are not necessarily the same thing.

I've modified a cassette with a dagger board from a performance Windsurfer that I've used on my Outfitter and Outback when I want to "sail pure." It's a fun time, but as with the Adventure Island, I believe it is the bending mast distorting the sail shape that hampers it's close-hauled performance.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
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Location: Auckland NZ
Certainly mast bend on the Hobie kayak sails has a huge impact on sail performance, especially in higher winds and when sailing close to the wind.

I have not yet attempted to resolve the bend in the AI mast (though I suspect that a very stiff windsurfer mast might be a very good answer) but on the kayak mast I have found 2 solutions:

1. Stay the mast. This is not hard to do and works well enough at the cost of a few $ and some added complexity. I used the system for years to sail with main and jib but these days I don't bother - I just couldn't be bothered with the additional complexity involved - and we get pretty good sailing breezes here in Auckland anyway - these days, when the wind is light enough for a jib I just enjoy pedalling in the smooth seas instead.

2. Change the mast! I acquired a carbon fibre pole from a local manufacturer for next to nothing and it makes a huge improvement over the stock mast. Firstly it is a whole lot lighter (at the cost of robustness of course) so it is easier to raise and strike and there is less weight aloft, but more importantly it is much stiffer which has two effects: a) sail shape is maintained for longer in higher winds and on closer points of sail; and b) there is much less tendency to spill wind which means that the boat is noticeably more reactive in terms of heeling to gusts but as long as you have your wits about you (and after 2 outings the additional twitchiness is the new normal), this means that you can convert more gust into boat speed.

FWIW I would definitely encourage anyone who is keen on the sailing component of these Hobie kayaks to consider a replacement carbon fibre mast like mine (I am trying to get another so that I have two for my schooner-rigged Oasis!).


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:54 pm 
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stobbo wrote:
FWIW I would definitely encourage anyone who is keen on the sailing component of these Hobie kayaks to consider a replacement carbon fibre mast like mine

I have shied away from carbon fiber due to concerns of chipping it in transport or handling. And I remember fiberglass canoes shattering in whitewater rivers while the aluminum ones could generally be unwrapped from boulders. But now I see carbon fiber repair kits claiming it is even easier than fiberglass to repair. Not sure if full strength could be restored.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:01 pm 
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My first Outback and sailing rig.
Mast was 3/4" ribbed aluminum tubing reinforced with a wooden dowel halfway up to reduce flexing. Stayed on 4 sides. Sails made from a tarp (I thought the camo was a nice touch, and matched well,) wrapped around thinwall pvc slipped over mast/ forestay. Both main and jib furled. This boat pointed well, was very responsive, and yes, you had to lean out quite a bit but it did move as fast as its stubby little hull would allow. Had it in just under 20mph winds with 1-1 1/2' close chop, never dumped it.
All the stays were attached with S-clips, and I used these as quick-detach cam cleats. The entire setup could be deployed or detached in minutes on the water, and bundled and stowed under a paddle bungee, with zero permanent modifications to the hull.

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:27 am 
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that looks like a pretty effective rig setup! I like the idea of rigging the sails to a tube that fits over the mast/forestay (If I have correctly understood your description of the rig) as that cleverly gets round the issue of how to furl the (main)sail(s) when the mast is stayed. Bet it sailed well... ?!


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing an Outback
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:25 am 
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stobbo wrote:
that looks like a pretty effective rig setup! I like the idea of rigging the sails to a tube that fits over the mast/forestay (If I have correctly understood your description of the rig) as that cleverly gets round the issue of how to furl the (main)sail(s) when the mast is stayed. Bet it sailed well... ?!


Thank you! And yes you have. I spray adhesived the sails to the pvc which included furlers glued to the bottoms. It actually pointed better than my AI. The main sail was captive between the shroud attachment points, and because I'd pinned a smaller wooden dowel through the larger one that reinforced the mast at the step, in order that any downward pressure of the shrouds was borne by the top of the mast step and not the bottom. An added benefit was that it created a shear point to protect the mast and the hull from over-stressing.

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