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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:36 am 
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RHoughVYC wrote:

Black is not required to leave a mark on on the same side as Blue. It is a gate. Rule 18 does not apply. If I am correct 18.2 cannot apply since 18 does not apply.


You are confusing/interchanging the terms Gate and Mark. A gate is not a mark - a gate is composed of marks. So while it is correct that you can leave a gate in either direction, you are required to round the marks which make up the gate in a specific direction. You are required to enter between the gate marks and exit to the outside of the gate marks, i.e. if you want to round the gate mark on the right hand side looking downwind, then you must round it on starboard tack and vice versa for the gate mark on the left. You can not enter from outside the gate marks and exit between the marks, so you are incorrect- the boats ARE required to leave the mark on the same side.

Therefore Rule 18 absolutely applies and this is a basic mark room/inside overlap situation. The only question to ask is did the blue boat have an inside overlap at the time the black boat entered the three boat circle? The answer is no, she did not and therefore blue was not entitled to mark room and should have been protested by black as Matt said earlier.

sm


Last edited by srm on Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:48 am 
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RHoughVYC wrote:
I don't think Rule 18 applies.

Black is not required to leave a mark on on the same side as Blue. It is a gate. Rule 18 does not apply. If I am correct 18.2 cannot apply since 18 does not apply.

They are both required to leave the left mark to starboard and the right mark to port. Rule 18 definitely applies at a gate to both marks, and it has ever since we started using gates in the late '90s. Google it if you don't believe me. What do I know? I'm just a certified US Sailing judge and national race officer.

RHoughVYC wrote:
Blue is clear astern and must keep clear.
Correct.
RHoughVYC wrote:
Once Black gybes a new overlap is created and Black must give Blue opportunity to keep clear.
The word "opportunity" is not in the rule book.
Quote:
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

Definition of room:
Quote:
[i]Room[/i] The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Definition of keep clear:
Quote:
Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately
making contact.


Blue did not keep clear, and was not entitled to mark room. DSQ Blue.

RHoughVYC wrote:
I'd pull the Black move anytime a Blue is silly enough to give me enough room to do it.

And eventually you'll end up in the room.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:37 am 
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O.K. That settles that,I will give Marcus the verdict and tell him to go back and do his Circle.Maybe too late for Circle he better take a DSQ and retire.
Now onto a new discussion.Why is the Class so adamant about using Wire for the Trap lines as opposed to a high tech line?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:57 am 
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MBounds wrote:
RHoughVYC wrote:
I don't think Rule 18 applies.

Black is not required to leave a mark on on the same side as Blue. It is a gate. Rule 18 does not apply. If I am correct 18.2 cannot apply since 18 does not apply.

They are both required to leave the left mark to starboard and the right mark to port. Rule 18 definitely applies at a gate to both marks, and it has ever since we started using gates in the late '90s. Google it if you don't believe me. What do I know? I'm just a certified US Sailing judge and national race officer.

And eventually you'll end up in the room.


No need to flaunt your credentials. I am race officer too and I've stayed at a Holiday Inn. :wink:

IMO the idea of discussions like this IMO is so we can all see other points of view and perhaps learn something. That does not happen when someone makes statements like "What do I know? I'm just a certified US Sailing judge and national race officer." That does not make you right. You may think it does so there is no point to further discussion.

Since I am not a US Sailing Judge I am not qualified to continue this topic.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:23 am 
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RHoughVYC wrote:
No need to flaunt your credentials. I am race officer too and I've stayed at a Holiday Inn. :wink:

IMO the idea of discussions like this IMO is so we can all see other points of view and perhaps learn something.

I agree, and I'm sorry I did that - but you were bucking a very established principle. It's important to understand that rule 18 applies at every mark (except at a start, and some very limited other circumstances) - including the two marks that make up a gate.

mmadge wrote:
O.K. That settles that,I will give Marcus the verdict and tell him to go back and do his Circle.Maybe too late for Circle he better take a DSQ and retire.
Too late to do a circle :)
Only a protest committee can give out a DSQ. He could retire at any time, though. I'm not holding my breath. (BTW, I met Marcos and his crew Priscilla at the 16s in Sausalito a couple of years ago - super nice people.)


mmadge wrote:
Now onto a new discussion.Why is the Class so adamant about using Wire for the Trap lines as opposed to a high tech line?
Not sure on that one. I was the one that brought the Rule Committee's attention to the loophole that someone was trying to exploit by shortening their wire traps to 6" and having the rest be synthetic. I'd be in favor of synthetic trap wires, but there are issues with them (fraying, creep) that I don't think the factory wants to deal with.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:29 am 
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Quote:
Why is the Class so adamant about using Wire for the Trap lines as opposed to a high tech line?


Is the class adamant, or is it just in the rulebook? oh wait... nevermind.. I see it is highlighted in yellow.

Min dia of 2.38mm Stainless steel, and no shorter than from the tang to 1250 mm base of mast extrusion.

Did they have a problem or concerns with people trying to use line that wasn't up to the task somewhere, or someone who thought losing a few ounces aloft was some kind of massive advantage?

As a recent convert to fully adjustable trapeze setup,(which I love) and someone who had to shorten stock cables to make it happen, I don't really understand the rule. The rule doesn't require Hobie parts, so it isn't like the Trampoline rule or anything like that... Going high tech line IMO would be cheaper, easier, SAFER ect..

We have to have stupid comp tips.. What is the opposing argument to having trapeze lines which one could cut a stuck crew member free if disaster were to strike?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:36 am 
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MBounds wrote:
I'd be in favor of synthetic trap wires, but there are issues with them (fraying, creep) that I don't think the factory wants to deal with.



The boats already don't come stock with several things which make it easier to perform certain adjustments, is it really such a huge advantage to go synthetic that new boats would be uncompetitive unless they made the switch? Even as someone who would without a doubt would change my rigging if I could.. I really doubt a trapeze line switch is what is going to put me at the front of the pack at Nationals.

All it would do is make it cheaper to keep old boats on the water, and make it cheaper for the tinkerers to tinker.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:03 am 
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Yes Marcus and Carol are very nice people and great Sailors we had much fun in Germany with them.The intention of the post was not to discredit them and or there sailing, it was just an attempt to invoke some discussion on what I thought was an interesting situation.Unfortunatly like some discussions on Forums it gets a little personal.
Ron I am with you on the Trap lines,makes no sense.Take up the torch and put in a proposal to change it.I did the same thing with getting Carbon Fibre Tillers approved.Ran into a few road blocks ( mostly just people on this Forum) but really did not require a lot of effort.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:39 am 
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MBounds wrote:
RHoughVYC wrote:
No need to flaunt your credentials. I am race officer too and I've stayed at a Holiday Inn. :wink:

IMO the idea of discussions like this IMO is so we can all see other points of view and perhaps learn something.

I agree, and I'm sorry I did that - but you were bucking a very established principle. It's important to understand that rule 18 applies at every mark (except at a start, and some very limited other circumstances) - including the two marks that make up a gate.


Thanks ... I would try that move gate or not. :-)

It is hard to catch but after watching this frame by frame what I think happened is:
Black was chasing Red (both on port) to the right mark of the gate. Black was not aware of Blue coming in on stbd.
Black has to keep clear of Red (Black is Clear Astern) Red Gybes, Black has to slow to keep clear of Red and starts her own gybe. In the middle of Black's gybe Blue blankets Black and sails past before Black starts to accelerate after her gybe.
Could Black have altered course and made contact with Blue (while keeping clear of Red)? I don't think so. I think Black was so focused on Red that they were surprised when Blue went by. Black was down speed and Blue did not prevent her from making any maneuver. I don't think Black had any chance of passing Red at that mark. So the options become following in place or looking to defend so you don't get passed. Note that Red was far enough away from the mark Blue had plenty of room to make a good rounding. I infer that Black (in Red's wake) was also far enough away from the mark to allow Blue to round without a foul. I think that if Black was aware of Blue they would have gybed earlier and not have left Blue room to round the mark. Black might lose a boat length or two to Red, but by not being aware and defending that mark Black not only lost the distance to Red but 2-3 places on the water. It is almost impossible to gain a position by playing follow the leader.

Assuming this was a higher level event and everyone knew the rules the fact that Black did not protest Blue is important to me. If they thought they were fouled they would have protested. They didn't.

I'll have to study cases at gates to become more familiar with the rules involved. I now know there is one more thing to add to the list of things I don't know ... so I learned something. :-)


mmadge wrote:
Now onto a new discussion.Why is the Class so adamant about using Wire for the Trap lines as opposed to a high tech line?
Not sure on that one. I was the one that brought the Rule Committee's attention to the loophole that someone was trying to exploit by shortening their wire traps to 6" and having the rest be synthetic. I'd be in favor of synthetic trap wires, but there are issues with them (fraying, creep) that I don't think the factory wants to deal with.[/quote]

There is no compelling reason to change from wire and a few reasons not to change. (I'm a retired rigger for whatever that might be worth) ;-)

I think boats would be slower with high tech line for trap wires so I don't see a reason to rule against using high tech line.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:55 am 
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mmadge wrote:
Ron I am with you on the Trap lines,makes no sense.Take up the torch and put in a proposal to change it.I did the same thing with getting Carbon Fibre Tillers approved.Ran into a few road blocks ( mostly just people on this Forum) but really did not require a lot of effort.

:D

Oh good grief, have I not caused enough trouble already. 8) I just might have to give it a shot if I get bored this winter though.


Is there a valid counterpoint, besides making less sense for production boats?

What other classes allow synthetic?

F18 have this rule.

Trapeze wires of stranded stainless steel wire or rope of minimum
diameter of 2.5 mm.


Is the wildcat sold with wire or rope?

49er

RUNNING RIGGING
(a) MODIFICATIONS, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
(i) The trapeze wires may be replaced with stainless steel wire of not
less than 2.0 mm diameter or by lines of any material of not less than
3.0 mm diameter.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:05 am 
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RHoughVYC wrote:

There is no compelling reason to change from wire and a few reasons not to change. (I'm a retired rigger for whatever that might be worth) ;-)

I think boats would be slower with high tech line for trap wires so I don't see a reason to rule against using high tech line.


What compels me is I have an adjustable trapeze setup simliar to what is found on nearly every other class of sailboat. In order to install this sweet setup which is allowed by class rules I am required to use more expensive steel which also limits the adjustability and the ease of which such a system can be rigged. You can splice amsteel with darn near nothing, almost anywhere. Try that with steel.


The only problems I see are creep, which isn't a problem given the reasons I have for wanting to high tech, and Fraying... Which I don't see as a problem in the application either.. You could replace a lot of line before totaling the cost of one set of steel trap wires.

The big reason is safety.. My wife or kid ends up pinned under the boat. I can't cut the steel line.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:08 am 
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ronholm wrote:

49er

RUNNING RIGGING
(a) MODIFICATIONS, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
(i) The trapeze wires may be replaced with stainless steel wire of not
less than 2.0 mm diameter or by lines of any material of not less than
3.0 mm diameter.


This is the reason there should be no measurable advantage to high tech line. Windage.

The wind "sees" frontal area. By increasing the diameter by 50% you increase the area and drag by 50%. When you compare the weight of wet 3mm line to 2mm SS wire you will find very little difference. Why trade more drag for very little weight reduction and more stretch?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:42 am 
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RHoughVYC wrote:
Why trade more drag for very little weight reduction and more stretch?


Creep isn't an issue.. Not anywhere high tech trap lines are allowed.. Drag is going to be negligible, and by how much is only determined by whatever the class rules are. There are 2mm high tech lines which would be up to the task. 3mm amsteel isn't going cause any appreciable difference in drag compared to 2.38mm steel with a plastic coating.

My reasons.

Safety. If I have to tolerate a stupid comptip for those reasons, that should be reason enough! :P

Then....

Cost and ease of fabrication. Why should it cost so much to replace a broken handle or change the height of the handle. Why if we are not going to require Hobie brand parts should I be required to spend twice as much ordering custom order steel lines to build something I can easily rig right on the beach, in minutes, with greater adjustabilty.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:39 am 
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ronholm wrote:
RHoughVYC wrote:
Why trade more drag for very little weight reduction and more stretch?


Creep isn't an issue.. Not anywhere high tech trap lines are allowed.. Drag is going to be negligible, and by how much is only determined by whatever the class rules are. There are 2mm high tech lines which would be up to the task. 3mm amsteel isn't going cause any appreciable difference in drag compared to 2.38mm steel with a plastic coating.

My reasons.

Safety. If I have to tolerate a stupid comptip for those reasons, that should be reason enough! :P

Then....

Cost and ease of fabrication. Why should it cost so much to replace a broken handle or change the height of the handle. Why if we are not going to require Hobie brand parts should I be required to spend twice as much ordering custom order steel lines to build something I can easily rig right on the beach, in minutes, with greater adjustabilty.


No possible rebuttal to the comptip safety argument. :-)

I think the rule should be changed to allow any material in the Trap Lines. I don't see any speed advantage that would obsolete boats with wire so why not allow experimentation?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:31 pm 
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Ok... Back to something closer to the original topic...

Mark Room....

In a valid protest made by the boat with the camera against each of the other boats..

(Solo sailing is allowed by event sailing instruction)

What is the decision 8)





Photo taken just prior to mark rounding.

Image

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