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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:23 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsBoKOwDv7E

check out the 50 sec mark of video


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:43 pm 
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He was wrong - but if the guy who had rights doesn't hail him and keep him out - his bad. Coming into the circle he should have told the guy astern no overlap no room and kept him behind.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Couple issues ,did the guy gybe inside or outside the three boat length circle?Also did the inside boat actually interfere with the outside boat rounding or did he just leave too much space?The outside boat ended up clear astern after rounding.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Assuming a valid protest was filed (hail of "Protest", paperwork submitted within the time limit) . . .

Facts:
Black enters the zone ~ 0:47, clear ahead of Blue. Black is entitled to mark room (RRS 18.2(a) and ISAF Case 2).
Black starts to jibe to stbd @ 0:46 and completes the jibe @ 0:50.
Blue overlaps Black to windward @ 0:51 and must keep clear (RRS 11).
Black avoids a collision with Blue @ 0:52
Blue rounds inside Black
There was no contact between boats or with the mark

Conclusion:
Blue did not give Black mark room, thus breaking RRS 18.2(a)
Since Blue was not entitled to mark room, she broke RRS 11 and is not exonerated by RRS 21

DSQ Blue.

Side note - it appears that Black attempted to head up (there's a wiggle in her track), but was prevented by the presence of Blue. ISAF Case 63 states that when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space. It does not appear that this was the case here.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:07 pm 
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I will have to talk with Marcus to see if he was protested.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Blue was on stb
Black was on port
Black must keep clear

Black gybed within the circle now Blue is overlapped to windward and must keep clear
Black must give Blue room to keep clear

No foul

Good move

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:27 am 
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RHoughVYC wrote:
Blue was on stb
Black was on port
Black must keep clear

Black gybed within the circle now Blue is overlapped to windward and must keep clear
Black must give Blue room to keep clear

No foul

Good move


That is how I see it also.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:56 am 
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Black doesn't give up right of way due to the gybe. Rule 18.4 (I think) affords that right. You are allowed to gybe as part of your proper course at the leeward mark.


http://game.finckh.net/reg_gbr/cases/case75.htm

http://game.finckh.net/reg_gbr/cases/case02.htm


The only way Blue escapes without penalty is if Black didn't hail protest for Blue taking room to which Black was entitled and in a clearly in position to take.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:21 am 
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RHoughVYC wrote:
Blue was on stb
Black was on port
Black must keep clear

Black gybed within the circle now Blue is overlapped to windward and must keep clear
Black must give Blue room to keep clear

No foul

Good move

This was never a port/starboard situation. Black entered the zone clear ahead. Blue must give Black mark room. 18.4 does not apply since it is a gate.

Blue went from clear astern (must keep clear - rule 12) to windward boat (must keep clear - rule 11), so rule 15 does not apply. Black is only bound by rule 16.1 to allow Blue to keep clear when she changes course - but Blue did not give Black mark room. There was no contact, so neither boat broke rule 14.

Blue breaks 18.2(a). DSQ Blue. Bad move, and a very low percentage maneuver.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:52 am 
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Related but off subject question.

We had a situation a couple times this year when the gate mark to be rounded on a port tack was nearly in the layline for the mark to be rounded on a starboard tack. It meant you could seriously slow the progress of a competitor who was just ahead of you by coming in on Starboard. The way I understand it, it doesn't matter if the port boat is within the three boat circle or not, they are still required to keep clear of the starboard boat is the starboard boat wants head for the other mark, and/or give room to the starboard boat (with inside overlap)should that boat wish to gybe and round the mark leaving on a port tack?

Right?


And at the other mark.. A port boat with inside overlap on a starboard boat is entitled to mark room when rounding a gate mark, gybing, and leaving on the starboard tack? Or not?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:00 pm 
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ronholm wrote:
The way I understand it, it doesn't matter if the port boat is within the three boat circle or not, they are still required to keep clear of the starboard boat is the starboard boat wants head for the other mark, and/or give room to the starboard boat (with inside overlap)should that boat wish to gybe and round the mark leaving on a port tack?

That is correct.

ronholm wrote:
And at the other mark.. A port boat with inside overlap on a starboard boat is entitled to mark room when rounding a gate mark, gybing, and leaving on the starboard tack?

Also correct.

But there is a distinct difference between the two situations - at the right mark (looking upwind, left to port on port tack), a boat coming in on starboard is the right of way boat and has substantially more freedom in how they round the mark, as long as they allow the port boat an opportunity to keep clear. Of course, as soon as they jibe to port to round, they lose that flexibility, as they become the windward boat and must keep clear per rule 11 (to be exonerated by rule 21 for taking mark room).

Rounding the opposite mark, (the left one, left to starboard on starboard tack), the boat coming in on port is entitled to mark room, but because they must keep clear of starboard boats (and will be exonerated by rule 21), as the burdened boat entitled to mark room, they are allowed by definition:
• to leave the mark to starboard,
• to sail to the mark, and
• to round the mark onto a close-hauled course.
The phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark. (See ISAF Case 118 - I was on the jury that decided the original protest of that case.)

The short story is that a boat coming in on starboard at the right mark can make a tactical rounding (in wide-but not too wide, out tight); a boat coming in on port at the left mark must make a "seamanlike" rounding - close to the mark.

In either event, it is very slow to do a 180° turn. It's much better to jibe somewhat away from the mark (like what Black did on the original scenario), as long as you can maintain your inside position. Even if Black protested Blue, and Blue did a one-turn penalty, Black was still in the dirty air of the first boat that rounded because they got pushed outside. They needed to tack, and soon. However, if he had gone to the other mark (on the right), rounded it with speed, he would have been in much better shape. Having 20/20 hindsight is great.

There must have been something tasty about that left mark or the left side for them all to want to go left.


Last edited by MBounds on Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:19 pm 
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This mark rounding looks like a nightmare! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWOKxaKi0sA The real question is, how the heck did that Hobie 16 stay up with all of those boats and then come out ahead of them from that mark!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:54 pm 
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Clean air is a marvelous thing . . . especially in light air.

Whoever set that mark so close to breaking surf ought to be shot.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:07 pm 
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MBounds wrote:
RHoughVYC wrote:
Blue was on stb
Black was on port
Black must keep clear

Black gybed within the circle now Blue is overlapped to windward and must keep clear
Black must give Blue room to keep clear

No foul

Good move

This was never a port/starboard situation. Black entered the zone clear ahead. Blue must give Black mark room. 18.4 does not apply since it is a gate.

Blue went from clear astern (must keep clear - rule 12) to windward boat (must keep clear - rule 11), so rule 15 does not apply. Black is only bound by rule 16.1 to allow Blue to keep clear when she changes course - but Blue did not give Black mark room. There was no contact, so neither boat broke rule 14.

Blue breaks 18.2(a). DSQ Blue. Bad move, and a very low percentage maneuver.


I don't think Rule 18 applies.

Quote:
18 MARK-ROOM
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies.


Black is not required to leave a mark on on the same side as Blue. It is a gate. Rule 18 does not apply. If I am correct 18.2 cannot apply since 18 does not apply.

Blue is clear astern and must keep clear. Once Black gybes a new overlap is created and Black must give Blue opportunity to keep clear. I'd pull the Black move anytime a Blue is silly enough to give me enough room to do it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:18 pm 
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Can't wait to get some shots with my bird... This from a nearby lake...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQctwH90blA

From the front of the fleet to the back when not entitled to mark room.

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